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My views on abortion:
By all I've been able to figure in my head, by all important definitions, the fetus isn't a baby until after the first trimester--early second trimester is when it gets a brain, is able to start thinking, and becomes self aware. For all essential purposes, this is when it has its "soul," when it is first sentient. At this point, in my opinion is when it goes from fetus to baby, making it a person. I most definitely consider it amoral past such a time to have an abortion, and am leaning towards considering it murder.
There is another side to the story, however--something to think about. How much does a state-sponsered abortion cost? About $1000-$2000. How much does it cost to raise a child, often handicapped (many would be considering abortions are on drugs of some form or anither) at the state's expense? I don't know exactly, but easily $30,000, likely more--I really don't know. The point I'm trying to make here is that mass murder is by far the economically superior plan, which means that morals stand no chance. At least that's how I've seen life; what's right doesn't hold a candle to the power of the dollar. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:52 pm
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
john, it's actually more of a range for raising a handicapped child. It can range anywhere from 30,000 (which is actually if I remember right how much is costs approx to raise any child) to over a million dollars. It's all about the severity of the "handicap" I've known family who put 4 grand into their kid a month just to basicly keep it comfortable and that was back in the early-mid 90's. Lets just say it's still 4 grand. we'll say for 14 years and 2 grand for 4. that comes out to 768000 dollars over 18 years. That's closer to the extreme but prices ad up fast.
I had a sick cat for about a month before we had it killed. It in the end cost us just over 6000 dollars. Expect the same or moreso for a child unless they have excellent medical insurance. Even then it'd be about 1-2 thousand. _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
I'm anti abortion, frankly I love my sister. And neither she (nor most likely I) would be here today if one of my mom's friends hadn't convinced her not to give life the chance.
And I think viruses and microbes are more adaptive, in that they can create resistances to what is tryin to kill them rather quickly
There is a very good reason why viruses and bacteria and other organisms with a fifteen-minute life span evolve quicker than us. If my sarcasm hasn't shown you the light by now, you have no chance to survive. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:25 pm
stFalcon5
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Post subject: Re: true that
Shinigami wrote:
true 'dat' my biology class just finished that unit
we suck microbs rock
go microbs
they can live in acidic places and even places that are base.(PH) : )
You are a failure to the human race.
In other news, abortion should be an unrefutable option (to please the relgious nutsos) for cases such as rape and incest. Yeah, a lot of the current lobbying in congress about abortion is to ban this, believe it or not. Just goes to show you how much they care. As for debating whether or not abortion should occur during a certain time-period or trimester during pregnancy, it's stupid and quite hilarious. Hilarious in that Bible freaks and doctors (that specialize in pregnancy or even psychology) will debate endlessly about the correct time during pregnancy the magical miracle of life is present.
BTW, for women: every time you ovulate you kill at least half of one child, and when you guys all masturbate you kill 500,000,000+ half potential babies.
Yeah. I don't have much respect for those kind of beliefs. But at least Jerry Falwell and the entire cast of Fox "News" supports them. Fox News: Fair and Balanced, like non-secular one party democracy should be. _________________ "KUSANAGI!"
Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:35 pm
Fodder
Joined: Apr 02, 2003
Post subject:
Simply my stand, pro-choice, is that the US Government shouldnt have its hands inside of womens bodies. I dont care where you stand on this morally. But as soon as you give the government a chance to control our bodies you open up a pandoras box that you can never close again.
Long live Roe v Wade
Wed Apr 23, 2003 8:28 am
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject: Urge to smack rising, rising, rising...
Fodder wrote:
Simply my stand, pro-choice, is that the US Government shouldnt have its hands inside of womens bodies. I dont care where you stand on this morally. But as soon as you give the government a chance to control our bodies you open up a pandoras box that you can never close again.
Long live Roe v Wade
So, it's the government sticking its nose into peoples' business if someone asks for an abortion so that they might live their life, I don't know without being in poverty for its remainder? How in the hell is it "government having its hand in womens bodies - lol I can't use an apostrophe" when the government pays for a woman to a private clinic to have someone's thread of fate cut short? _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:29 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject: Yet another of the Krogoth's antisocial views
I was going to ask why people are so concerned about babies, but it's really a stupid question.
Rather, I will express my concern over the fact that we are placing the value of potential higher than shown worth. I don't think it's very reasonable to make laws to protect a fetus that MIGHT grow up to be a productive individual, while ignoring the usually low probability that the child of a mother who wanted to get an abortion will get all the attentions and care that it needs to become a non-parasitic member of the human race. I don't really care whether a woman kills a bundle of potential with no proof of its worth. Abortions are fine with me. But there are certain circumstances where they become a good thing in the long run. I see exactly no reason to condemn this potential being in question to a cycle of reckless behavior.
Of course, in my dream society, such mishandled children will be free to fail miserably enough to die before many of them get the chance to reproduce and be forced to rear their disgustingly similar children. In this world, I still would not condemn the use of abortions, I just wouldn't have as much cause to use it myself.
Just to make things clear, yes I am saying that a fetus has negligible value, until its worth can be quantitatively measured. I am also saying that a child with no hope of an appropriate upbringing is worse than no child at all. Lastly, why the hell should Lacey Peterson's murderer get the death sentence? I see no indication that it fits the requisites for such an action in California. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:04 pm
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Leave it to one of the Las Vegasians to look at the 'worth' arguement from the exact opposite side of what 99.99999% of people usually do. I'm gonna be thinking about that arguement for a while, you know that? _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:10 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
It's not Vegas, it's just me. And it's a good thing that I'm getting SOME people to think occasionally. This is one of my rare unexpressed beliefs, for obvious reasons. I'm looking forward to seeing what, if any, response I'll get from Nobuyuki and Fodder. Spook should be . . . interesting . . . as well. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:44 pm
Nobuyuki
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject: Re: Urge to smack rising, rising, rising...
Actually, I've been trying to avoid this particular turn in topic...
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
Fodder wrote:
Simply my stand, pro-choice, is that the US Government shouldnt have its hands inside of womens bodies. I dont care where you stand on this morally. But as soon as you give the government a chance to control our bodies you open up a pandoras box that you can never close again.
Long live Roe v Wade
So, it's the government sticking its nose into peoples' business if someone asks for an abortion so that they might live their life, I don't know without being in poverty for its remainder? How in the hell is it "government having its hand in womens bodies - lol I can't use an apostrophe" when the government pays for a woman to a private clinic to have someone's thread of fate cut short?
I think Fodder's saying it's government interference to prohibit women from having an abortion, and there's no problem with the government subsidizing them (socialized medicine). If I'm wrong, Fodder, my apologies for the misinterpretation.
I, of course, believe government should neither prohibit nor sponsor them. It's beyond their responsibility. Just don't expect me to pay to raise your kids with my taxes.
Of course if more people raised their children responsibly, my job would be much easier.
And FAK, "worthiness" factor aside, I really can't argue against what you're saying here. _________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."- C.S. Lewis
"Superman can't be emo. He can't cut himself."-CP
Thu Apr 24, 2003 8:14 pm
stFalcon5
Joined: Nov 04, 2002
Post subject:
counterparadox wrote:
Leave it to one of the Las Vegasians to look at the 'worth' arguement from the exact opposite side of what 99.99999% of people usually do. I'm gonna be thinking about that arguement for a while, you know that?
Your figures are too high by 49.99999%.
...or are they? It doesn't matter.
I'm just trying to figure out how two different sides of an arguement can both be "Pro".
You can flip "Pro-abortion" to "anti-abortion", but not "pro-life" to "anti-life". Terminology of the strategery of the Right Wing frightens me in all its vagueness. But fear not, the Left Wing is scum on earth as well. You can all sit in whatever negative afterlife you believe to exist for eternity. _________________ "KUSANAGI!"
Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:01 pm
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
stFalcon5 wrote:
counterparadox wrote:
Leave it to one of the Las Vegasians to look at the 'worth' arguement from the exact opposite side of what 99.99999% of people usually do. I'm gonna be thinking about that arguement for a while, you know that?
Your figures are too high by 49.99999%.
...or are they? It doesn't matter.
I'm just trying to figure out how two different sides of an arguement can both be "Pro".
You can flip "Pro-abortion" to "anti-abortion", but not "pro-life" to "anti-life". Terminology of the strategery of the Right Wing frightens me in all its vagueness. But fear not, the Left Wing is scum on earth as well. You can all sit in whatever negative afterlife you believe to exist for eternity.
I'm talking about the point he made about worth, about how it would cost way too much and is their life worth the money. It's a VERY uncommon arguement. _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:17 pm
Cooolcorey
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject:
Who gives a fuck about monetary value. This is a HUMAN BEING! Imagine that your friend's parents decided to have an abortion with that friend. You wouldn't have that friend. You may not know what you have lost if they weren't there, but still, I think every child deserves a chance to grow up and live a life. I realize that since many people who would get abortions would be using drugs, and that could mean a less than pampered life for that child, and that child could grow up to be nothing. But my mom grew up with stoners and alcoholics and she is now the most successful person in her family by far. If her parents would have had abortions, then I wouldn't be here, and that would mean another life has been wasted.
One thing I have to say about this is that if you don't want a kid, don't go around having sex. Especially unprotected sex, especially especially if you're still in high school. If you aren't stupid, you won't have a kid and you won't have to kill a human being. Granted, there is still rape, and that's a grey area in my opinion. I think that if you don't want the kid, give it up for adoption, there are other ways around that than killing a baby.
Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:35 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
Trust me, CC, you have exactly as much real basis for your belief that people of any kind are important as I do for my "show me" attitude. When did I speak in absolutes? Of course good people can come out of bad situations. However, does that mean we should allow those bad situations to continue, on the off chance that we get a few lucky breaks? I'm sorry, but, in my world, -5+2 is less than zero. Also, if your mother hadn't been born, you wouldn't have known the difference. Not to degrade your mother in any way, but the anthropic principle still applies, and five wrongs and a right don't add up to more than one right. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:56 pm
Cooolcorey
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject:
To tell you the truth, I think (since I've never been in this kind of situation before), that I would rather have lived a life and be poor and raised by pot-smokers than to have not even been given a chance to do anything. I think that every person should be given that chance.
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