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  Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Explaining the world through evolution :)
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Explaining the world through evolution :)
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dougisfunny

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counterparadox wrote:
Alright, yeah, this WAS what my bio teacher was talking about. I don't know that I really buy into it, nor can I deny that it exists. Basically, I haven't experienced proof that it exists, but I'm not going to deny it. Maybe psychics, real ones (if there are any, I mean (I'd like to think there are, but who can say? And who can say there aren't?)) are just good at tapping into this "Mind dump." I'll think about it more and get back to you. Hmm . . .


All you got to do is get Neo to hack into the database of the machines...

Can you tell i'm looking forward to the Matrix reloaded?
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PostMon Nov 18, 2002 3:18 pm
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Goldfinger2K

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the only thing that puzzles me is how can genes be "created" how could physical traits be generated, so the they can be passed on?

peace
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PostMon Nov 18, 2002 3:58 pm
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counterparadox

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Let me put it this way. There have been experiments where all of the elements of nature have been put together. As if there were no life at all, not even micro-organisms, and it's just dirt, water, air, and elctricity and light (lightning and sun). What did the experiments create? DNA.

DNA is a very amazing thing. 99% of you're DNA does nothing. It's just there as mutation protection. If a few genes get swichted around in that 99%, as is very likely to happen, it's not a problem. All that DNA actually does, is contain the order for amino acids for the protiens in your body. Now before you get confused, calm down and read on. (If anything doesn't make sense, just re-read it a few times. And if you get confused, calm down and continue.)

There is a protein that separates the two sides of DNA (Its a spiral, with one 'railing' (Think of it as a GINORMOUS staircase) containing the usable data, and the other 'railing' is just there as a placeholder.). Another protein comes along and transcribes the usable DNA onto a 'photocopy', otherwise known as RNA. A third protein comes along and closes the rift in the DNA that was formed by the first protein.

This RNA contains the order of the amino acids that are to be strung together. The RNA goes through a complex protein, and amino acids are strung together in the correct order in a large chain. Once the complex protein releases the string of amino acids, the natural bonds between them cause them to fold a certain way. Once it is done folding, it is now a protein that has a specific function.

Proteins are what do everything in your body on the molecular level. EVERYTHING. Absolutely everything is controlled by proteins. there are only 20 amino acids found in nature, and every single protein ever made is from a different combonation of these 20 amino acids. Proteins can range from just a few amino acids to thousands upon thousands.

The only thing DNA does is to hold the data on creating proteins. That's it. It doesn't control anything else except proteins. These proteins ware what formed YOU though, so don't underestimate them.



The only thing you really need to understand from all that in order to understand the answer to your question is the last two things: proteins do everything, and DNA holds the data for creating them.

DNA self replicates. There's a protein that does it, and the DNA is what creates that protein. Really, DNA is the only thing that does this. DNA is trully, trully, phenominally amazing times 100. And on a molecular level, things happen very very quickly since there is really no distance between them. My point?

My point is this. When life began on this planet, DNA formed, and through some miracle of nature (it had to be a miracle, no matter how you define a miracle, it was a trully amazing and a not so probable event) a lifeform was created. This took billions of years mind you, it didn't just 'happen' one day.

Organisms started to live and evolve. Those more fit to survive and pass on their genes, did just that. See? Any organism that could not reproduce, didn't. And organsims that didn't have a drive to reproduce, didn't and thus died out. Thats why humans put so much emphasis on sex: all animals that made it past very simple micro-organism stage have a drive to reproduce. THAT is evolution.




And that's a very, very, very basic answer to your question. Really, it amazes me that anything exists at all, and it amazes me that humans haven't killed themselves yet, and I also believe that there is life on other planets (to say otherwise is to ignore the fact that there are more planets then we could ever imagine and it would just be gullible and shortsighted.)

If that up there doesn't make sense, try to pick out which parts and I'll re-explain.
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PostMon Nov 18, 2002 7:18 pm
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Goldfinger2K

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heheh
don't worry about your "if you don't undersand..." disclaimers.
It's pretty simple to understand, I just couldn't come with that out of thin air. I hated my Bio class so i guess either i didn't learn it well, or (most likely) my teahcer didn't teach it. Even these "basics," thanks for a detailed yet summarized answer. Thus, it makes sense that if proteins created us then eating protein must create more mass, muscle mass mainly. Time to buy that weight gainer Razz .
Thanks CP.

peace
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"one time yug!-Steve O Fuss
Y.U.G.
"If I threw a stick would you go away?"-a shirt
"Toonami, better than getting kicked in the nuts!"-me
"If I was so inclined, I would have groped you five times!"^O^hohohohoho!-Vash
PostMon Nov 18, 2002 9:51 pm
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Force-Attuned_Krogoth

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Actually, CP missed the stuff about HOW we think DNA established itself as a living entity. As it started replicating, there were a bunch of types that all replicated themselves. Eventually, some of these got together and replicated faster. This process repeated until the copying was nearly exact, and very fast. Eventually, some mutations created proteins that would DO stuff other than make more DNA. This includes making a protective coating around the DNA, moving molecules and atoms out of which to make DNA and proteins, and dissassembling other DNA strands.

Eventually the proteins became more prevalent and more useful, and the DNA strands that created/used them were more successful. After a few hundred million years, prokaryote cells were created, and life went on from there.

This is not mere conjecture: They actually have recreated the beginning of the self-replicating organic molecules, and, with a few sparks, created what resembles DNA and RNA. As of yet, though, no cells have spontaneously formed.


On a slightly different note, I believe that Darwinism and random chance were the only means of evolution essentially up until the Cambrian Explosion. I believe this because before this time, there was very little speciation and exploitation of niches, and progress was understandably slow. Particularly before the advent of cells, there was no other mechanism that would to anything more reliably than radiation. At some point, however, some organism must have developed a way to increase the number and/or viability of its mutations, and its descendents populated the Earth as we see today. This is the only way (other than thinking up some almighty Thing that said 'Bam') to explain the sudden change of pace.
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PostMon Nov 18, 2002 10:14 pm
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Ludwika

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Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:

To Ludwika: Do you mean the physical manifestation of fear, which is easily explainable, or the reason we fear things such as the unknown? Or do you wish to know about the physical manifestation in the brain of our sense of fear?


Very well, describing the in-depth part of fear which goes about in the mind so to put it. The amygdala, the hypothalamus, and the midbrain are the main areas directing the much known fear and anger and of course their correlates, so to say. The stimuli to these areas elicit three major types of hostile behavior depending on the part of the amygdala, hypothalamus, or midbrain ... see, which is the major start of having fear develop in the mind.

Well, then the proliferation of fear is of course the meager start points from having panic, apprehension, trepidation, anxiety, suspicion, and etc....etc...
To put fear in simple phrase which goes along with my question before is...wouldn't fear just be a direct thought from not knowing something? I'm sure there's many indirect ways to explain fear on the view points of others, so explain away.
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PostTue Nov 19, 2002 1:21 am
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counterparadox

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. . .

Okay here's the thing. Seeing as how I've never taken a psychology course, and don't know too too much about the varius sections of the brain, that really confused me. If you could sum up your question in one sentence, then I'll take a crack at it. Otherwise, it's all yours, FAK.

Oh, and Golfinger, I loved my bio class and had a kickass teacher to boot. Thats why I love this evolution stuff. DNA was a fun quarter. Very fun quarter.
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PostTue Nov 19, 2002 4:47 pm
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Force-Attuned_Krogoth

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Umm . . . I've never taken psychology, but what the hey. If I'm wrong, somebody correct me. Here goes . . .

I think that fear is not caused by thinking about/doing something with an unsure outcome. One has to be able to imagine a good chance that something bad will happen. Thus, it invokes the "feets, don't fail me now" response. The hormones released in your body during the fear response heighten awaareness and physical strength, and, from what you've said, the hostility center of the brain. This is to prepare you for an encounter with something larger/meaner/toothier than yourself. Of course, those who go into such a situation without adrenalin would have a lesser chance of surviving.

The psychological effects of the fear response probably enhance the speed of sensory processing and decision making, with the effect of producing a state of heightened awareness. If you can see what's going on around you, you are better able to deal with it.

And, of course, all these hormonal modifications tax the body's glucose/oxygen/waste transport systems, so once they're no longer needed, fear shuts itself off. Is that good enough?
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PostTue Nov 19, 2002 9:41 pm
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Rycel

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You did pretty good there for never taking a psych class, FAK. You nailed a lot of the points, so I'll just clarify and paraphrase, if I may. The "Fight or Flight" response can be divided into 4 stages.
*Stage 1: You are presented with a situation which your body appraises. This is triggered by either a physical (wild animal staring you down) or psychological (room full of people all staring at you) stimuli.
*Stage 2: When your brain sees a threatening situation, it activates the hypothallamus to release ACTH, a stress-fighting hormone, and also activates the sympathetic division of your autonomic nervous system.
*Stage 3: The sympathetic division sends signals to the various parts of your body to prepare them for action.
*Stage 4: The "Fight or Flight" response kicks in, increasing your heart rate, blood pressure, respiration, hormone release, and a lot of other things that make you really jumpy.

If some of that sounds kinda technical, I just got it from my textbook just now. That's the very, very, very short version of the biological explaination for fear and its bodily reactions. What I think Ludwika was asking is more of a "why" explaination of fear; why we fear certain ideas (the unknown, etc.) innately. My guess would be that since a great deal of human thought and interaction is based upon memory and previous experience. If you have never touched fur before, you have absolutely no idea what it's like. After you do touch it, you brain records the sensations associated with fur as either pleasant or not. If you touch a porcupine and are pricked, you brain will record that sensation in relation to porcupines. This is a sort of natural conditioning, how our brains learn about the world around us, connecting certain sensations, experiences, and emotions to objects or events. Later, when presented with the same situation (fur, porcupine, etc.), our brain is able to recall the previous experience and we form our actions upon that information. Why the unknown and incomprehensible is so upsetting to the human mind is because of the lack of previous experience. When we ask our brain for info on this "new thing", it just stares right back at us shrugging its shoulders. The unkown, in all its forms, exposes the feeling of insecurity. And as we all know, humans absolutely hate to feel insecure or out of control.

Anyway, that's my explaination and I hope it helps. I'm not a real fan of biological psychology, but its a hell of a lot easier to explain that some of the other schools.
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PostWed Nov 20, 2002 12:36 am
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John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo

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Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:

On a slightly different note, I believe that Darwinism and random chance were the only means of evolution essentially up until the Cambrian Explosion. I believe this because before this time, there was very little speciation and exploitation of niches, and progress was understandably slow. Particularly before the advent of cells, there was no other mechanism that would to anything more reliably than radiation. At some point, however, some organism must have developed a way to increase the number and/or viability of its mutations, and its descendents populated the Earth as we see today. This is the only way (other than thinking up some almighty Thing that said 'Bam') to explain the sudden change of pace.

Gender was one big factor. After multicellular organisms came about, though, it is rather obvious that random mutations would take things to a whole new level-- sexual reproduction just sped things up (more combinations, more chance for mutation, etc.).
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PostWed Nov 20, 2002 7:22 pm
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Force-Attuned_Krogoth

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Well, John, I'm saying that during and after the Explosion, random chance WASN'T the main thing. Yes, gender does increase the probability, and certainly makes it easier for something to improve traits it already has, but it won't make new traits 10 000% more common. Speciation is much bigger than being bigger, faster, or better camoflauged. In many fossil records, there is a sudden, very significant change in some organisms. If wings were developed randomly, why did they come about so fast? A minimal proto-wing will affect something's chance of survival by a few percent, not enough to change the population in five or ten generations.
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PostWed Nov 20, 2002 9:55 pm
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Ludwika

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Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
Umm . . . I've never taken psychology, but what the hey. If I'm wrong, somebody correct me. Here goes . . .

I think that fear is not caused by thinking about/doing something with an unsure outcome. One has to be able to imagine a good chance that something bad will happen. Thus, it invokes the "feets, don't fail me now" response. The hormones released in your body during the fear response heighten awaareness and physical strength, and, from what you've said, the hostility center of the brain. This is to prepare you for an encounter with something larger/meaner/toothier than yourself. Of course, those who go into such a situation without adrenalin would have a lesser chance of surviving.

The psychological effects of the fear response probably enhance the speed of sensory processing and decision making, with the effect of producing a state of heightened awareness. If you can see what's going on around you, you are better able to deal with it.

And, of course, all these hormonal modifications tax the body's glucose/oxygen/waste transport systems, so once they're no longer needed, fear shuts itself off. Is that good enough?

I like your statements of fear, which to my views upon fear are different mainly because I do think fear is rather a thought of attempting to comprehend something that is in the mist of your presents or something superficial. But you state good facts upon fear, so you done good.
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PostThu Nov 21, 2002 3:09 am
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John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo

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Well, the mutations could lie in the gamete cells- they tend to be easy to mess up, especially when they join toghether. As for five or so generation equilibrium, I have no idea. It doesn't make sense to me either, except possibly for in cases where there's enough mutation caused that most of a species dies off, while some of it stays behind, and the very few new species that have a high survival chance is enough. I'm not making sense, am I?
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PostThu Nov 21, 2002 7:57 pm
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Force-Attuned_Krogoth

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I still say there's some other vector for speciation. A recent Hugo Award book (Darwin's Radio by Greg Bear) suggests ver plausibly that a retrovirus hidden in the genome expresses itself when stress/pheromone levels reach a certain state. This virus radically changes the female gametes to produce a new type of human. Of course, there are quite a few models that are attempted, and the ones that survive best (and/or first) become the new standard. This appears to make sense to me, except that the communication between each person's particular virus would be kind of difficult. How would they decide on a proper standard?
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PostThu Nov 21, 2002 9:31 pm
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dougisfunny

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Fear = reaction by association.

example, a deer who has never seena human or had any interaction witha human would walk up to one without much care.
This is due to the fact we don't look all that threatening, no big claws, scent of blood and death, they learned blood and death by seeing it.

Fear is a learned behavior. It doesn't take much to cause fear (in many cases.)
A deer after seeing other members of the heard would fear a wolf. or loud sounds or anything it has been conditioned to fear.
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PostThu Nov 21, 2002 10:56 pm
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