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  Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Explaining the world through evolution :)
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Explaining the world through evolution :)
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John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo

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A good question, FAK. To the bat cave!
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PostFri Nov 22, 2002 5:39 pm
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Zechs

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Danananananana Danananananana Danananananana BATCAVE!
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PostFri Nov 22, 2002 6:44 pm
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dougisfunny

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Gee Dick, I just keep running these punch cards through the computer and i can't come up with anything! We have to think of something else Commisioner, Or we may never save Gotham.

Sorry... I loved that show ^_^
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PostSat Nov 23, 2002 2:58 am
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SabraDova

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I'm glad you brought up the topic of evolution, FAK. I was thinking about what was once said (on an TDA last summer, I believe) about sexually desirable physical characteristics (or, in simpler terms, Why do guys like big boobs/dark-lined eyes/long hair or whatever) and what evolution has to do with it. I thought it would do to bring that up again.

I was looking through a few books last night, and I noticed that the standards of sexyiness have varied quite a bit in different times and different cultures. The Chinese thought small feet were not only attractive but necessary for marriage; certain tribes thing long necks are attractive; in the 1700s (or 1600s) fleshy women were desirable while today a man likes a slender girl. Today large breasts are the goal, while in the 1920s small breasts were in style. During the 1800s, big butts were in (evidenced by the bustle) and small waists were necessary (hence the corset).

The question? Are the criteria for sexual desirability the product of DNA evolution (as was pretty much the consensus the last time it came up) or the product of the social environment?

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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 12:31 am
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Gerbera345

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I'd have to say that I beleive it is a product of social factors, the examples you pointed out show this. What one generation may find atractive another generation may think is ok but is not as pretty as something else.
There is a possibility that one of the older styles may come back in, it has happened a few times in the past.
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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 12:38 am
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John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo

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Nice question there.
It seems that social makes a large amount of impac, for example the long neck thing, or the huge lips thing (or, for that matter, the huge breasts thing). This is almost always an extension of a necessary, "DNA" thing; the environment of a person will determine what traits are necessary for survival. Say, for example that disease is prevalant. Well, skinniness can often be taken as a sign of disease, so the natural selection will favor the fatties-- skinny people may be stereotyped as diseased, and just as often, those who find the fatties atrractive will be more successful in the creation of offspring, thus only the fatties will be reproduced with, and everyone will sexually desire the fatties.
In our society, for another example, it works differently. Fatness is a sign of unhealthiness, in general (lack of exercise, improper diet, etc.), so they may not be as reproductively fit. We have countless examples of all this stuff, but I'm not going to go through them all.
The social uses the genetic as a springboard; if the skinny people reproduce better, it will be ingrained in the consciousness of the people in the society. This is what comprises mostly of how we think of someone as "sexy"--what our social standards, based upon the success of previous mating have given us. But, like all things, people start to obsess. A woman who enjoys sex more is more likely do do the deed that produces offspring, thus one might put on makeup to simulate the look of sexual pleasure. A mother that makes lots of milk can feed her babies, so one might get hers enlarged to make the appearance--you get the idea.
Hmm, to sum up my argument, it's both, but mostly social based off of the genetic.
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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 12:45 am
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SabraDova

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John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
Nice question there.
It seems that social makes a large amount of impac, for example the long neck thing, or the huge lips thing (or, for that matter, the huge breasts thing). This is almost always an extension of a necessary, "DNA" thing; the environment of a person will determine what traits are necessary for survival. Say, for example that disease is prevalant. Well, skinniness can often be taken as a sign of disease, so the natural selection will favor the fatties-- skinny people may be stereotyped as diseased, and just as often, those who find the fatties atrractive will be more successful in the creation of offspring, thus only the fatties will be reproduced with, and everyone will sexually desire the fatties.
In our society, for another example, it works differently. Fatness is a sign of unhealthiness, in general (lack of exercise, improper diet, etc.), so they may not be as reproductively fit. We have countless examples of all this stuff, but I'm not going to go through them all.
The social uses the genetic as a springboard; if the skinny people reproduce better, it will be ingrained in the consciousness of the people in the society. This is what comprises mostly of how we think of someone as "sexy"--what our social standards, based upon the success of previous mating have given us. But, like all things, people start to obsess. A woman who enjoys sex more is more likely do do the deed that produces offspring, thus one might put on makeup to simulate the look of sexual pleasure. A mother that makes lots of milk can feed her babies, so one might get hers enlarged to make the appearance--you get the idea.
Hmm, to sum up my argument, it's both, but mostly social based off of the genetic.


A point I didn't mention was that most of these changes in desirablity seemed to occur too rapidly for the full force of evolution to take place- would man's general instinct, in the space of say 50 years, (20s(flat-breasted flappers)-70s (when boobs were getting big)) be able to change enough, due to evolution, to prefer pneumatic women to those that are flat?
PostSun Nov 24, 2002 1:42 am
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Force-Attuned_Krogoth

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I think I know what the problem is. It really appears to me that the societal sex drive is spurred more by commonality than evolutionary standards. Never has there been a time when the majority of women were considered highly sexy by the majority of men. Each culture has chosen a different trait to appreciate, and such traits have never been common. This trend can be explained through evolution. Think of it this way: If everyone marries an average woman, how would evolutionary changes occur? And, of course, for the vast majority of human history, those that don't change are less successful than those who do.


How cultures choose which unusual thing to fawn over, I have absolutely no idea. It seems random to me.



Oh, and Sabra, where the hell did "Bolivia" come from?
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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 1:57 am
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counterparadox

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You three might as well have had this conversation in person, seeing as how it's pretty much been just you 3 . . .

Anyways, there's not too much to say that hasn't already been said. Although the selection of what is 'sexy' is much less random in today's world. And I say 'selection' for a reason. The media tells us what is hott, desirable, etc. We're so brain-washed, as a society, it's not even funny.

Although, on the other hand, I don't think that a majority of the messages that have been fed to me have demanded that blue eyes are hot. Yet I find them damn attractive. And everyone is saying that Halle Berry is hot, but I, for some reason, don't think so at all. And I watch more TV than I should, too.
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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 11:17 am
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counterparadox

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Ok, I NEVER double post, but something JUST NOW dawned on me as I was writing a stupid english essay.

Know what I said above about how blue eyes are very damn attractive? Well that's because they are rare. Thats why traits shift over time. Traits rarely die out completely. Like the finches in the Galapagos islands that Darwin studied. If it rains alot, finches with large beaks are promintent because they can eat the big seeds that are produced. Little rain = small seeds = small beaks. But neither ever dies out, because that would make the trait non-existent and then the finches would be screwed.

Likewise, if people's breasts are getting too large, small ones become attractive, because excessively large breasts would be a hinderance to balence and looking downward and just be plain annoying, I bet (I wouldn't know, so this is spectulation with a smidgeon of humor.) Point is, that's the reason that different things are attractive over time. If one thing becomes too prominent, it will go from being an aid in survival to a burden if conditions were to change unexpectedly. We need varying traits in order to survive. Well, we did when there were, you know, less than 6 frikken billion of us. Now technology is becoming a hinderance and we're going to kill ourselves with nukes or nanobots.
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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 3:53 pm
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SabraDova

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counterparadox wrote:
Ok, I NEVER double post, but something JUST NOW dawned on me as I was writing a stupid english essay.

Know what I said above about how blue eyes are very damn attractive? Well that's because they are rare. Thats why traits shift over time. Traits rarely die out completely. Like the finches in the Galapagos islands that Darwin studied. If it rains alot, finches with large beaks are promintent because they can eat the big seeds that are produced. Little rain = small seeds = small beaks. But neither ever dies out, because that would make the trait non-existent and then the finches would be screwed.

Likewise, if people's breasts are getting too large, small ones become attractive, because excessively large breasts would be a hinderance to balence and looking downward and just be plain annoying, I bet (I wouldn't know, so this is spectulation with a smidgeon of humor.) Point is, that's the reason that different things are attractive over time. If one thing becomes too prominent, it will go from being an aid in survival to a burden if conditions were to change unexpectedly. We need varying traits in order to survive. Well, we did when there were, you know, less than 6 frikken billion of us. Now technology is becoming a hinderance and we're going to kill ourselves with nukes or nanobots.


Well, there are a lot of characteristics that are rare, but aren't ever considered sexy (at least from what I've seen). Hare/cleft lip, for instance. Then, I once heard of an isolated town where cleft foot was common and it was considered "beautiful" (so beautiful that people underwent surgery to achieve it)- even though it impedes a person's walk. Elsewhere- where it is more rare- it would be considered ugly, but in this town, where it was common, it was a mark of beauty.

If that was comprehensible, please counterargue; if it wasn't, then act as if I didn't post anything at all. It's too late for me to think sensibly.
PostMon Nov 25, 2002 1:12 am
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dougisfunny

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Post subject: Blue eyed and Blonde and I'm still sexy ;)
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It was comprehensible. And I will counter argue. Sexiness is made up. Some weirdo or group of weirdo that are powerful/revered (and yes its usually weirdos who are powerful and revered) thought something was desirable. And as all the hanes commercials say "I want to be like Mike. Bleet, Let us all be sheep together."

People are conditioned to like something new because industry or the higher classes always want something new or better than the lower classes the lower classes always want to be like the adored uppercrust. When the have nots catch up, the standards are changed for what is desired.
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PostMon Nov 25, 2002 11:42 am
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JohnnyPsycho

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Here's something I'd like the joined panel here to think over, just because I think they're interesting thoughts...

What are your thoughts on genetic "memories"; that is to say, forms of intelligence/instinctive knowledge that may be inherited rather than taught or learned. The only reason I ask is because the proliferation of certain instincts among a population of a species is a key question to me. Is instinct something that occurs at the gene level? Is it possible for behavioral patterns to truly be encoded into genes, and if it is, at what point do certain behavioral patterns get encoded? And is it even possible for the experiences of a parent to be passed on to offspring without "teaching" said offspring?

And, to tie it in slightly with another idea brought up here, is it possible that instinct and "inherited knowledge" is somehow tied into the "collective unconscious", or what I like to call "nature's Internet"?

Sit and discuss this one for a moment. I'll come back later... Twisted Evil
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PostMon Nov 25, 2002 3:29 pm
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counterparadox

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Sabra, the way I see it, Cleft lip could be a sign of un-health. Blue eyes are not. I wish I had more to say on the topic, but right now, I don't.

JP, instinct is an tough thing to answer. I'd like to allow Krogoth to speak first. Usually his answers spark a thought in me, and right now, I'm pretty dry.

Yeah, I'm off my game tonight. Sorry if you expected something better.
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PostMon Nov 25, 2002 5:24 pm
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Force-Attuned_Krogoth

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That's a nice one, JP. The first thing that comes to mind as I read it is this: most actions/knowledges are learned, not instinctive. Genetics appears to have an impact on how people learn, though. Thus, it can be said that some skills are hereditary (as an example, ~85% of the males in my family are engineering-types) because the ability to learn them easily is.

However, there are a few things that are distinctly instinctive. What I think of is a newborn's reactions to stuff. If something touches a baby's cheek, he/she automatically turns his/her mouth to it. I really cannot think of how that got into the gene pool, but it's pretty obvious why it stayed.

As for actual memories being hereditary, I think not. I believe that genes serve as guidelines, not blueprints, for growth. One example I can name is the pattern of spots on a giraffe. It has been found that there are two chemicals that, when both are placed on a surface, they separate into patterns like a giraffe's spots. Research on giraffe embryos showed that embryos were indeed covered with those two chemicals for a period of time. Before this stage, no spots. A little while after (give follicles time to grow), there were spots. After a little more searching, they found a similar situation for zebras.
Or at least, that's what a documentary I saw said.

Thusly, I believe that genes will determine how synaptic connections are created, and by extension when, but cannot place them there. There just isn't enough room for the genome to give such specific data.

However, if you were to fiddle around enough, you could make some connections so probable that it would almost be impossible not to make them . . . I think I've talked myself into believing in instincts!


Incidentally, I'd like to thank everyone for their though-provoking questions. I really enjoy thinking about them, and writing about it makes me think even deeper. I always know more at the end of my posts than at the beginning. I guess that my genes made me learn this way, and I wouldn't realize this if I weren't using the internet w/o my parents' consent. I feel guiltily giddy. Or giddily guilty. Weird.
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PostTue Nov 26, 2002 9:37 pm
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