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Toonami Infolink :: View topic - War With Iraq - A thread for thoughts and discussion
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If the answer is yes, this war make take a week. If no, it may take much longer. _________________ Sometimes I miss my sanity- Wedge Antilles
Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:29 pm
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
no no, people dobnt have a problem with the idea of homeland security itself. the problem stems from what it could become. Do you really think the KGB started out corrupt? probably not, it came over time. _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
Well, I'm not sure about how many casualties we will take. We don't know the state of the nuclear program, other than the fact that they were at one point experimenting with uranium bombs, which are much easier to make work than plutonium. If they actually have some working ones, what's to stop him from using them on our troops? Also, some of the chemical and biological weapons will almost certainly be used, and I don't know if we have precautions in place for all of them. (does anyone know which ones we know Saddam has, and what we intend to do about them?)
Remember, this won't be as peaceful as the first Gulf War, because we're going for the heartland. Desperate Saddam won't be as restrained as Losing-Outer-Territories Saddam. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
I am all for this war. Not because of the gas prices or any of the poltical reasons. But becasue we have to take out Saddam one way or another. For what he has been doing.
I have so many friends over there and Ill be joining them soon.(offier in about 2-3 more years) I am in full suport of what they are doing, they are my brothers and Ill fuck any hippy who says diffent. I cant belive they would burn the flag. FUCK OFF! _________________ \\m// (>_<) \\m//
Thats what it is all about!
Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:04 am
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
CollegeBum wrote:
I am all for this war. Not because of the gas prices or any of the poltical reasons. But becasue we have to take out Saddam one way or another. For what he has been doing.
I have so many friends over there and Ill be joining them soon.(offier in about 2-3 more years) I am in full suport of what they are doing, they are my brothers and Ill fuck any hippy who says diffent. I cant belive they would burn the flag.
I have two things to say about this . . .
1. Who gets to decide when a political leader is "evil" and "needs to die?" I'm sorry, but I have a problem with acting on people's unexpressed behalf, particularly when we assert that we are right, and 60% of the rest of the world are weenies. Yes, I personally believe that Saddam is a very bad and cruel ruler, but I'm not sure it's our right to decide which governments are 'up to snuff'. Yes, we've done it often enough in the past, but that doesn't make it right.
2. If our government was trying to depose Tony Blair militarily, would you be angry? If they claimed it was a unanimous American sentiment to do so, would you speak up? If your brothers were being sent to die for no good reason, in the so-called name of democracy, would you feel compelled to take a stand against the administration? Why can't people get it through their heads that it is NEVER a bad thing to have conflicting opinions? Without a mediating factor in American politics, Desert Storm II would be an indescriminate war on the people of Iraq, not just the leadership.
3. Just because soldiers are fighting, doesn't mean what they're doing is justified. I don't understand why people say that being against the war is an insult to American soldiers. A) they didn't ask for it. B) I didn't ask for it. I don't fault people for what they're forced to do. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Sat Mar 22, 2003 11:24 am
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
CollegeBum wrote:
I am all for this war. Not because of the gas prices or any of the poltical reasons. But becasue we have to take out Saddam one way or another. For what he has been doing.
I have so many friends over there and Ill be joining them soon.(offier in about 2-3 more years) I am in full suport of what they are doing, they are my brothers and Ill fuck any hippy who says diffent. I cant belive they would burn the flag. FUCK OFF!
Yup, that seals it, you're a moron. I understand the want to remove Saddam, bu twe don't NEED to. And so someone protests that your friends shouldn't be fighting and risking thier lives THAT is unamerican. And flag burning--if you felt your country has failed you, would you not do the same thing? Just some things to think about.
Now FAK: I love conversing with you, it's always fun, so let's get to the intelligent debate:
You bring up two important questions (who determines what's right, and whether that justifies the exercise military action).
I'll ignore all the treaties that all of these opposing countries signed, and all the resolutions they signed saying they'ed go to war against Iraq 5 years ago if they didn't comply since it's not at the philosophical heart of the discussion.
I'm a big fan of the Supreme Court, and hence, like to apply their rulings to most of the world, as the meaning of the constitution, for the most part has been a very good standard (although its interpretation hasn't), and the SC as of late has been pretty good about following the meaning (yay for striking down the pr0n clause in the 1996 Telecommunications Act!). Anyway, I submit that it is the majority of the world that determines what is right and what is not; the standards of the community (in this case, the international community). This isn't the dark ages here, you can't run around killing your media if they don't not only support you completely, but not word every news story exactly as you'd like. I'm sorry that sentence was worded confusedly. Anyway, I couldn't name one sane person left on this planet who would consider Saddam's actions through his entire reign acceptable.
The next question is: do we have the right?
It has ben mentioned that we have "the duty" to help out our fellow man in thier time of need. I, personally am a firm believer in this. I know I can't look at the news cast of the Israeli children being taught by thier parents how to use a gas mask, and being told the importance of carrying it around everywhere they go. Six year old children shouldn't have to live like that. And I know I'm using what would be an extreme, tear-wrenching speech, but the entire middle east has to live like this thanks mostly to Iraq. But the right thing, that depends on how strongly (if at all) you rate our responsibility to help anyone else in need. I personally believe that you can't honestly consider yourself a decent human being without doing everything reasonably in your power to help other people in need. I'm not saying be stupid about it (for example that we give so much aid to Somalia and Ethiopia when it all gets destroyed by the drug lords in charge of their countires), and the way this war is being handled is a good example (it could be done a little better, like NOT throwing half of our armored forces in the same convoy) of doing it right.
So I say that yes, it is the right thing to do. And do we have the right? Well here's my bombshell: you have to believe in right and wrong to say we don't have the right to do something, but the "good" of our "rightness" far outweighs the "bad" of "wrongness" that's going on relatively.
And besides, all this war footage is pretty cool.
I look forward to your much more coherent reply. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Sat Mar 22, 2003 12:12 pm
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Burning a flag is not a disgrace to those who died for this country, it is an HONOR to them, showing that you are speaking up (and thus utilizing the very rights they fought to protect) in order to show people that things must change for the better.
In the light, I would burn a flag. I've come close to feeling like I should on more than one occasion.
On a lighter note, MTV had a special thing on the whole Iraq situation. It was the most unbiased and level-headed news program I've seen in 3 months. I hate the media . . . _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Sat Mar 22, 2003 12:27 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
To carry your Supreme Court parallels further, what effect would Roe v. Wade have in this debate? Also, what is the difference between political and social impositions on individual rights?
Thirdly, if "the majority of the world" decides which governments are "acceptable," how do you count this? is it merely country-by-country? By population? By economic status? Why do we get more of a say than France? At the start of the operations, we had 35 countries in support of us. Twenty of these were silent partners, or merely allowed us to use their airspace. Most of those who released their names were small countries like Burma. Is this "the majority of the world?"
Ach, I'm too lazy to do much more than ask questions right now. If you ask me some, it may motivate me . . _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Sat Mar 22, 2003 1:21 pm
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Quote:
1. Who gets to decide when a political leader is "evil" and "needs to die?" I'm sorry, but I have a problem with acting on people's unexpressed behalf, particularly when we assert that we are right, and 60% of the rest of the world are weenies. Yes, I personally believe that Saddam is a very bad and cruel ruler, but I'm not sure it's our right to decide which governments are 'up to snuff'. Yes, we've done it often enough in the past, but that doesn't make it right.
the thing is the iraqies in this country want saddam out, THEY have said he needs to go. They are in america because saddam is an abominable tyrant. If you have been watching the news iraqi soldiers have been surrendering left and right, they do not want to fight for saddam, if you lived in a country ruled by a dictator you and your entire family would be killed if you spoke out calling him evil and he needs to die/leave. Most people their live in fear of saddam and so have to put on an air of support. So would you say that the iraqi people are a good judge that saddam isn't up to snuff and should be wiped out? I do considering they've had to live with him. It's pretty hard to find an iraqi in america who doesn't support our government 100% on this "war" _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
A) Stupid people are controlled by the smarter people with the largest voices, AKA things like CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, etc. Thus the majority of America, and the world, are mindless drones. Even my parents have said things that sound remarkably like somehting a child relying solely on his superego would say. (Superego- like a tape recorder. Spits out things you've heard but haven't thought out in any way.)
B) There is no right answer. We're all arguing, and we're all right. No one here is 'blatantly wrong.' Only those mentioned above are wrong, because their views are not their own.
C) In one of the episodes of Nadesico that Toonami showed, the enemy said something like "In a battle, each side is fighting for his justice." No one thinks "Gee, I'm evil. Cool." Everyone has their justifications.
D) Humans claim to be superior, but we SUCK. Until we become what we claim to be, life is going to suck for us all. Douglas Adams was right about the Dolphins and the Humans . . . _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Sat Mar 22, 2003 6:10 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
To carry your Supreme Court parallels further, what effect would Roe v. Wade have in this debate? Also, what is the difference between political and social impositions on individual rights?
Thirdly, if "the majority of the world" decides which governments are "acceptable," how do you count this? is it merely country-by-country? By population? By economic status? Why do we get more of a say than France? At the start of the operations, we had 35 countries in support of us. Twenty of these were silent partners, or merely allowed us to use their airspace. Most of those who released their names were small countries like Burma. Is this "the majority of the world?"
Ach, I'm too lazy to do much more than ask questions right now. If you ask me some, it may motivate me . .
Ah, but remember: Roe v. Wade was a matter of privacy only when the baby wasn't determined to be a human being. Once the scientific communities current definition has been satisfied, it is no longer a matter of privacy. And the difference social and political is that a person, socially speaks wholly for themselves (unless they're considered crazy, in which case it's handled in a similar manner as we handle political issues). A nation's leader doesn't always speak for the whole, or even a majority of its people.
Quite honestly, I don't think we should be making the determination of "goodness" or "badness" either, but say France or Russia would be a bad idea as well (I don't know what Germany's problem is, but France is a large trade partner with Iraq and has sold them plutonium in the past; and the world just found out today that Russia has been selling radar jammers and AA guns to Iraq--they seem more entangled than us). I think the determiner of "good" or "bad" should be made by a panel of different nations from around the world, not tied to the country in question.
That's all the time I have for today, folks. More another day. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Sun Mar 23, 2003 5:32 pm
AnimePrime
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject:
In one of the episodes of Nadesico that Toonami showed, the enemy said something like "In a battle, each side is fighting for his justice." No one thinks "Gee, I'm evil. Cool." Everyone has their justifications.
I'm evil... and cool
Seriously folks, if you don't think a guy that gasses his own people isn't evil then your pretty twisted. Of course maybe all of those kurds DID deserve to die.
Sun Mar 23, 2003 6:14 pm
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
I'd gas anyone who looked at me funny. Thoguh I doubt my gas is nearly as deadly; just noxious. _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
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