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Shazzan The
Impossibles Max Fleisher's Superman (a.k.a. Roulette) The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest Robotech Sailor Moon DragonBall Z Filmation Superman Batman Superfriends
ReBoot
Ronin Warriors G-Force Powerpuff Girls Batman: The Animated Series Gundam Wing Tenchi Muyo! Universe in Tokyo Superman Outlaw Star Big O CardCaptors Mobile Suit Gundam
O8th
MS Team DragonBall Batman Beyond Gundam 0080 Zoids: Zero Hamtaro Zoids: Chaotic Century Guardian Force G Gundam He-Man and the Masters of the Universe Transformers:
Armada
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circle
cn2 revolution Japan japanese multimedia saban funimation toei graz harmony gold mainframe Tyler Zogg TylerL
Umm . . . wow, ST5 seems to have trouble with the [img] command.
Anyhoo, I've had three relatively blissful weeks without much doctrine-related activity. (In case you wondered, I played cello one Sunday, sang the next, and ditched last Sunday) Unfortunately, I had to sing for a special service on Tuesday, because the Presbetery is in town, and my (HAH!) church decided to show off. It was pretty eh, but the guest pastor was pretty good. Unfortunately, some stuff came to my attention, and I had to scribble it down on the back of my bulletin with a bad pen, and here it is:
In one of the songs the good choir sang, there was this passage:
God sent his son,
Not to condemn the world,
But to save it
The title, and chorus, of the song is "This is love."
However, I have a slight problem understanding this. Ostensibly, God set the standards by which sins should be paid for (sacrificing lambs, etc.). These sacrifices were offered by the people to God himself.
Eventually, God decided to give humanity a break. Why didn't he just forgive people? If he's so powerful, and if he is the judge of right and wrong, why was a sacrifice required on his part? (Maybe He had to explain/atone for his actions to some other being?) How did God decide that the forced sacrifice of an intelligent being pays for all of the evil that can possibly be done?
Then, in the sermon, "God is kind to even the ungrateful and wicked" . . . yet he still required a punishment for sins? But wait, he doesn't anymore! Did Jesus's death revoke the consequences of action? What IS the difference between having someone else pay in advance and getting a free ride? Should we, because all the sins have been suffered for, not punish those who we deem to be sinners?
I see a lot of contradiction in Christianity.
Oh, well, at least God knows how to handle humanity . . . "God's kindness and Jesus' sacrifice is what causes us to change." What I want to know is, did mothers learn the art of the guilt trip from God, or was it the other way around? _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:07 am
Rycel
Joined: Nov 09, 2002
Post subject:
Sorry if this post gets a little long, but I have a lot of catching up to do, so here we go...
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
I see a lot of contradiction in Christianity.
Hoo hoo, boy howdy! Did you hit the nail on the head or what? And why exactly is that? My answer would be: the Bible. Any document as subjetive to interpretation as that should have absolutely no belief structure built around it that calls itself "concrete" and "true." Take the Constitution for example. The entire American governmental system is (supposedly) based around its articles. This single document provides the foundation for quite possibly the greatest empire (yes, EMPIRE) history has ever known. And yet, it is subject to change when the stresses placed upon it become too great. The entire governmental system is altered by a few simple words being added, deleted, or changed. And even when the Consuitution is being left alone, it is subject to interpretation and speculation by all branches of government. How can something so prone to interpretation provide a concrete foundation for a system of living that can provide all the answers and support them with infallible evidence. Answer: it can't. That's why (at least in my opinion) the Bible should only be seen as a work of literature from which to provoke new ideas and insights, and of a theologically-manipulated historical account of one man's struggle for a better life.
The sad truth is, that too many people within organized religion (all of them, not just Christianity) are too blinded by their faith to use their greatest gift: the human mind's capacity for uninhibited exploration of ideas. Humans have the nasty tendancy to become creatures of habit. However, unlike their floral and faunal cousins, humans have the capacity for thought and the ability to manipulate their surroundings. When these powerful abilities are set to work, they can conjure works of noble magnificence or horrendous artifacts and events of destruction and malice. All it takes are the proper stimuli and time to make them habit. As we have moved farther and farther away from our original niche, humans began exercising their minds to develop brilliant abstract ideas, ranging from how we belive the universe to function (as we have lost our primal, congruous connection to it) to the realm of the unseen and unheard (at least to our spiritually blind populous). In time, humans developed societies with laws both written and unwritten. These early societal influences were the first limiters to be placed on the infinite capacity of the mind, shaping the thoughts of those who lived within them. From one such thiner came the tales of the Torah, the Old Testament.
Here was a person who had seen the times and conditions they lived in and got to creating stories. These stories told of supernatural powers, humans chosen as pawns in the celetial games, great deeds and greater heroes. Over time, these tales changed as they were passed from one person to the next, eventually being written down by a lone man (and we can be almost certain that it was a man). As time's arrow sailed on, events unfolded and new stories were told in hushed whispers of a visionary, a rebel who was seeking a path to a better life for he and his people. This man was known as Jesus, a rebel against the oppressive Roman empire, and was put to death for his pursuit of freedom. As the years rolled on, the Roman Empire fell and stories of the rebel changed to those of a visionary, and later to those of a "messiah." Somehow, the Old stories mingled woth those of the New, creating the first Christian Bible. And ever since, as the stories were told to generation after generation, they changed by those in power as justification for their own actions. Since then, the Bible has been changed, translated, rewritten, and changed again to fit the times and new dogmas.
Other religions have fallen victim to the same metamorphasis of theme, altering their teachings and revising their own histories. As I previously stated, such subjective ideas cannot provide a viable base for live practices without having major consequences. And that these such ideas are taken to heart far too readily and are even harder to change once adopted creates a serious problem. Judeo-Christianity are religions of order and structure, based on fear of authority and rewards for obedience. That these punishments and rewards come in intangible forms confounds the issue, as they can neither be absolutely proven nor denied. Believers use their "faith" as voth a defense against those who would question the beliefs, and as a weapon for use on those who may be converted. Believers in any religion (organized or loose, massive or cultish) progress in degrees of "faith" to the epitome of devotion, being the zealot. These are the devotees who are oblivious to the protests and arguments of those of differing ideologies, often violently so. They have taken their beliefs to the level where all other ideas are false. These zealots have now cut themselves off completely from the great human gift, the capacity for infinite thought. Those who would doom themselves to lasting narrowmindedness are the ones who have committed the ultimate act of heresy against their very nature.
-------
Woah! I didn't expect write that much, and I still have ideas rattling around up here. But that's as far as I want to take it right now. If you didn't want to read all that and just skipped down here, here's the condensed version of the argument: Members of organized religion who refuse to open themselves to the possibility that it's all just in their heads cannot be argued with, as they have "flawless explainations" for everything. "Religion" is the great trap that will steal away our ability to be "spiritual." I say that it is better to have an open mind than to resrtict yourself to one way of thinking. _________________ Rycel's Death Count on this board: 7
"Great Ironies of Our World": Why is orange juice yellow?
Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:15 am
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
God set the standards by which sins should be paid for (sacrificing lambs, etc.). These sacrifices were offered by the people to God himself.
Eventually, God decided to give humanity a break. Why didn't he just forgive people? If he's so powerful, and if he is the judge of right and wrong, why was a sacrifice required on his part? (Maybe He had to explain/atone for his actions to some other being?) How did God decide that the forced sacrifice of an intelligent being pays for all of the evil that can possibly be done?
Then, in the sermon, "God is kind to even the ungrateful and wicked" . . . yet he still required a punishment for sins? But wait, he doesn't anymore! Did Jesus's death revoke the consequences of action? What IS the difference between having someone else pay in advance and getting a free ride? Should we, because all the sins have been suffered for, not punish those who we deem to be sinners?
I see a lot of contradiction in Christianity.
Oh, well, at least God knows how to handle humanity . . . "God's kindness and Jesus' sacrifice is what causes us to change." What I want to know is, did mothers learn the art of the guilt trip from God, or was it the other way around?
Ok, yeah, Rycel... holy crap. That's all I got to say about that. and wow. Holy crap and wow.
Anyway... God is vengeful, always was. The church itself decided (after it started losing popularity and customers) that it needed to tone god down a notch or two.
God and Jesus are two heads of the same coin. They set out to achieve the same ends only by different means. God wanted blood, he was as I said quite vengeful, with his wrath and all, but Jesus on the other hand taught through gentle love. Both have the same messege, but go down very different paths to meat up inthe end. That's where the contridiction comes in. The church decided to make god more like Jesus but so they toned him down, but only parts of him (such as no more sacrifices, no more raining down of fiery wrath) but left the history of his past "doings". Basicly the old testement is about gods path to salvation, the new is about jesus' take on it. Both teach the overall same things just one is one action packed with blood n stuff.
Once you get around that the contridictions aint so bad, because then you trully understand how much the church changed gods actions even somewhat the meanings. It's the idea that's important not the belief. As long as you have the right idea the church no longer serves a purpose, the church (all churches actually) hate the idea but love the belief. Do you really need to go into gods cage to constantly try to confirm what the person with the keys to gods cage tells you that you know? Or do you accept what you know and try to expand it in your own way with your own interpretation? It's not that the pastors, the priests, the pope knows more about god and the bible, it's just they belive they are right about their interpretation and try to force it upon you. _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
Rycel, you have expressed exactly my beef with religions. In my belief, there is nothing in this world worth denying anyone the right to use the greatest strength of humanity, and, if there is a god who judges us, our only saving grace: thought. As I have said in many times and places, my utter ideal is holisticity of thought. This completely goes against one part of what I have been brought up with: the church. Unfortunately, few people within the church have any idea that I am nowhere near Christian. (The number of people I have told is, I think, seven) For the most part, I don't say anything about it, because it would take too long, and be very disruptive. (I also have this problem with Boy Scouts -- I see no point in doing an Eagle project, other than "playing the game" to get better selection in jobs. I can't tell people, particularly those whom I greatly respect, that I don't want to be known for being an Eagle Scout. I want to be recognized for RELEVANT skills. The only thing that could POSSIBLY be relevant to what I want to do is leadership. My mode of thinking does not lend itself to outright leadership, because I think people should be able to lead themselves. When I tried to express this to the person I most respect in the troop (who did not do his Eagle project), he flatly contradicted me, and said that he would make sure I do the project. He refused to acknowledge that I am an independent human being, and did not realize that I am in the most defiant period of human development. I still see no point in doing the project, because I have learned everything relevant I could. In fact, I learned more relevant information in three weeks last summer than in my 12+ years of scouting. The only way to get these people off of my back is to avoid them, which I have been. My mother is disappointed, but kind of understands)
I hate keeping up appearances. I hate trying to explain my actions to those I somehow hurt by not hanging upon their every word. I hate people who don't understand that humans are intelligent and make their OWN DECISIONS, not just those that they are told to.
I need to stop thinking about this now, before I buy a trenchcoat and a big water gun and walk around soaking everyone I see. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:17 am
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
I haven't read everything on this page yet, but theres something I want to say before I forget.
Religion is aimed at the masses. The masses don't think as much as we do. We are anomilies; exceptions to the rule. I think you have to keep in mind that religion is not designed for each individual, it is designed to affect as many people as possible. In the last century, technology, communication, and society as a whole, has changed far too fast for religion to evolve with it. Thus, less people are religious today: they don't feel an affinity with religion. _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:23 pm
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
counterparadox wrote:
Thus, less people are religious today: they don't feel an affinity with religion.
It's not less people are religious, it's less people are going with orginized religion. Thos that go with orginized religion are going with alternitives to judo-christian churches such as Wicca. _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
Ah, this is a thread that I've been waiting to speak upon.
God, by all means, needs to be cleared up. As you once said, FAK, if you can't view its effects, its moot. This leads me to point out that the existence of said "higher being" has been brought down to one great comparison: energy. It doesn't really exist, not per se. It is, however always a good measuring stick for beliefs. The nearest definition I've come to is not "thou art god," but "all art god." It seems to me that god should be defined as everything, most importantly everyone you know, your perceptions of them, their perceptions of you, yourself, your environment, and your relationship with all of the above. Thus, yes, there are many, and the same god constantly vying for your attention. I bring this out of the conversation so far and my experience in life.
So, now having these many faces for this one god; every experience in your life changes your perception of "god" thus changing god in your own self-defined universe.
What does this mean? Simply, god is a metaphor put in simplistic view for those who cannot take a step back and easily look at the big picture. I don't like sitting around and entertaining the asinine impression that there is a tangible, separate than yourself god that exists. The one big prop I give the Mormon religion as that it sets little boundary between my definition and the established definition. Anyway, the concept of god is only there if you can't take a wholistic view on your life: more accurately it IS your wholistic view on life. Anyone that tells you different is blind or stupid. Again, if its effects are negligible, its existence is moot. It's exactly what you make of it--a fine tool if I do say so myself. Religion, in its pure form, is more like a philosphy class.
In conclusion, FAK, I find that you are completely correct. You ARE surrounded by blind, bleeting sheep fillling the pews and reciting prayers as if they understand its true meaning as a statement of self-existence and affirmation, as well as a statement of faith in thier own capabilities and the goodwill of mankind.
Oh, and BTW, the afterlife: I just figure that the last second of your life acts infinately long; the state of mind you're in one you die is the state of mind you're in for all of eternity, as far as you're concerned. Make it a good state of mind. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
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