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  Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Why organized religion scares me
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Why organized religion scares me
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John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo

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gfpaperboy22 wrote:
well, look at the bright side. Its like having sex with the dead, they can't say no.

Actually, that's about what I would compare it to on the wrongness scale.

The origins of a path to grond.
It was a common saying in electronics class, "Don't be a path to ground." Ever since the teacher Ms. M had shown the class a piece of garbage movie, second only to Scoobey Doo in corney 80s crappiness, that touted the phrase. The term, however, among the class evolved a general, don't be an idiont, don't be a jerk kind of term. It started with a cookey character known only as Matt, and his sidekick Wade Davis.
One fateful day, the teacher required that we make posters promoting the message (don't be a path to ground). In a stroke of creativity and laziness, I decided to make mine with stick figures. I carefully drew the stickman with the construction hat, his two circles for eyes. I then carefully drew a really thick line (a "power" line, if you will). I followed up with it with a ladder resting on it, with a stick man (who was about to climb up) recieving a nice jolt, emphasized by the lighning bolts through his arms and legs. There was text at the top reading, "StickMan Says," and at the bottom--I thought it'd be cool for the "don't be a path to ground" to be under the ground view--or at least the ground part. So, just above the ground was the rest of the message, with ground being in huge block letters. It actually looked half decent. Unfortunately, in my haste, I had completely forgotten the U in the word ground.
About a week later, the class was progressing. David Walker was his usual edgy, attention whore self, when Matt said, "don't be a path to grond, David."
"What?" David whirled around in his whiney voice.
"Don't be a path to grond."
"What's he talking about, John?"
"What are you talking about, Matt?" I inquired.
"Don't you know?"
"Know what?"
"You mean--you don't know?"
"I guess not."
"Go to the back of the room at look at the posters."
I hesitantly got up from my seat and walked to the back of the room. Sure it was, in all it's glory. Stickman touting his ominous message. "Don't be a path to GROND." The best part--it had full credit on it. The teacher hadn't noticed either.
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PostFri Nov 29, 2002 10:42 pm
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counterparadox

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Haha, that's great. I'd use that saying in my daily life, but no one would get it.
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PostFri Nov 29, 2002 11:18 pm
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dougisfunny

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i'm gonna laugh when i walk around and see someone saying don't be a path to grond... that would be great. I always spell satur'n'day with the extra n...
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PostSat Nov 30, 2002 10:37 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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Sorry, folks, I got some catching up to do...
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
I also have strong ideas. The first is that proof is king. Secondly, logic is Prime Minister.

I just want to ask two things: Proof according to who? and What is the basis of your logic (because "logic" is not a universal constant, despite what you might believe or might have been taught)?

I'm not trying to stir up an argument or anything, just want you to realize the reality of "Truth". In a tribal, "oral-history" society, the truth is simple. It is spoken by the elders, and passed on to the young. In the early pre-print society, truth belonged only to the literate, who in turn held all the power in the society. They told the illiterate what the truth was, and because of that, they could put any spin on the truth they wanted. In the days since printing presses were created, literacy grew slowly, and the truth no longer belonged to the powerful. However, truth became even less distinct. As we exist today in the "Information Age", truth is even less distinct. We question the integrity of news media and journalists that give us the facts. We have become a society where truth is unattainable.

So where does proof exist when truth is so ambiguous and invisible?
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
Finally, JP, you have partially captured the spirit of the ring story. There really isn't any true religion for everyone, but there are ones that are better for some people. What you have to do is look at which group, on the whole, behaves better. However, you assumed something about the ring: that it always works the same way. All that is said is that it has an effect, not a method. By your logic, Judaism would be the true religion, because it follows closest to the Old Testament. Remember, people can be good in different ways. I personally don't need a religion to tell me not to impede the progress of humanity, but others obviously don't handle the abstraction well.

Again, you are assuming that you understand my logic. According to my logic (in case you need some help understanding it), no religion is the true religion. It was the kindness and wisdom of the old father that was the source of power, not the rings. Again, my assertion is that the rings had no power to begin with. It all depended upon how well the sons took the father's example and messages of wisdom and peace, as well as how they acted upon the lessons that they had been taught by the father. That's all that religion really is. Muhammed, Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Zoroaster, Imhotep... they are all our fathers, and religion is only a basic foundation upon which morality can built upon. The belief in the rings' power is kind of like a psycho-sematic process. The rings are only a placebo, but if the belief in the healing properties are strong enough, then yes, mind does win out over matter.
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PostMon Dec 02, 2002 2:36 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:

JohnnyPsycho wrote:

2. The columnist made a derogatory and unnecessarily crass statement about the founder of a religion worshiped by millions of people around the world. I'm not saying that violent retribution was necessary, but I think that the person who made such a statement was obviously a complete moron for thinking he could get away with making a mockery of a religion followed by many native Nigerians.

Um, no he didn't. He simply made a joke that maybe Mohammed(sp?) himself would probably want to take one of them for a wife. The riot started as a mass email campaing (not exactly your poorest, most desparate citizens), stating only that a newspaper had slandered the word of Allah and the name of Mohammed--that's it. So they all got together and started breakin' stuff.

You obviously have never been to a "sensitivity workshop" before. Religion is a serious thing to some people, so making light of it is a completely contemptable thing to them. I'm going to say somthing now that is going to get me in trouble, but I believe anyone stupid enough to diss any major religious icon or figure deserves the violence and strife they end up creating. Yeah yeah yeah, we should all play nice and be able to know right from wrong, blah blah blah, shit. But you have to realize that human beings live off of their emotions, and pissing off people can creat havoc. I don't care if you "didn't mean it" or "did it all in good, clean fun". Religion, being the powerful foundation upon which morality and law all across the globe are based upon (ever notice that there is no Constitutional Ammendment that states that murder is a crime? And yet every state assumes the basic Commandment "thou shall not kill" into their own laws. Go ahead, do the research yourself...), is far too dangerous a topic to "kid around" with. It's like a child playing with dad's gun, even after he's been told how dangerous it is. "But I was only playing" is not an excuse, just as ignorance is not an excuse (go ahead and tell a cop next time you get caught commiting some traffic infraction that you "didn't know it was against the law", and see how quickly they smile as they give you the ticket).
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:

Quote:
To people who live everywhere else, religion is a promise of something better than the shit-hole they live in and call home, something more just and righteous than the police that can come in at any minute and shoot them for disagreeing with the current political heads, something stronger than their hunger, something grander than their poverty. Faith and religion are things that promise greater strength than any earthly kingdom. Religion is the one hopeful glimmer of a just society in a whole world that is constantly in war. Whether you live in Iraq, Mexico, or even living in the poorest sections of the Appalacian Mountains, your God is the only thing that can keep you from falling, from becoming a victim.

Wow, that really sucks. These people have lost faith in humanity, so they stick it in a god, whose actually an abstract expression for that humanity they lost faith in. Some people...

So you're saying just because it's abstract and beyond you own understanding that it doesn't extist? Hmmm, intersesting...

a couple more pages now, and I'll be all caught up! Very Happy
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PostMon Dec 02, 2002 2:58 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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I'm reposting this, because only two people gave answers to the questions, and though I applaud them in their opinions, I don't think they entirely got the question.
Quote:
so are you saying that you yourself lack strong beliefs? I think the true heart of this debate is whether any of you could see yourselves capable of committing a "crime" (being an act that goes against the mainstream culture's codes of ethics or morality) in defense of or in declaration of your beliefs.

Are you capable of having such "dangerous tendancies" that you yourself could commit acts of violence against those that act in defiance or threaten your belief system?

Do you have any beliefs strong enough that you would die or possibly kill for?

Are you a strong person because you yourself lack any strong convictions that would allow you to break through that invisible barrier?

Is it fair to even compare the actions of those with strong convictions to the inactions of those with weak ones?

You might not see yourself being able to "go nuts" like that simply because you have no point of reference. Nothing pulls you enough to risk life and limb. It's safer to have no convictions at all, but is that necessarily any better?

Let me rephrase: Do you believe, know, intuit, think, or have an idea about something passionately enough that you would risk your very being in defense of it?

Yeah yeah yeah, violence is never the answer, the "penis" mighter, blah blah blah, yippity-shit, whatever. You're avoiding what I'm asking you. Is there anything that you can hold truly enough to yourself that you can say "Yeah, I would die for this" or "Yeah, I would kill for this". Have you ever reached a moment in your life that you realized your very existance was tied into this "greater knowledge" (or whatever it happens to be) and that your very life is inconsequential as long as the message (or, again, whatever) is communicated.

Is existance more than being a "nice guy"? Can you put meaning into your existance through sacrifice?

Martydom. Sacrifice. Do you really think that you are that far away from becoming the "zealots" you so openly despise? Or is your resistance to being "controlled" by religion or other outside influences your area of "zealot"-ness?

C'mon, this really shouldn't be that hard... I understand why some of you are so sqeamish about it, since the median age in here is like, what, 16 years old or something. Most of you still have a long road ahead of you, still trying to figure out who you are, etc. etc. I just want to see if anyone really believes that they are that far detatched from the passionate "sheep" that openly thrust themselves into death's jaws for a belief.


"They blow themselves up in order to get at us, and we launch 3 million dollar missiles off of giant floating iron islands 2000 miles away - Who are the real cowards?" -Bill Hicks
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PostMon Dec 02, 2002 3:21 pm
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gfpaperboy22

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JohnnyPsycho wrote:
"They blow themselves up in order to get at us, and we launch 3 million dollar missiles off of giant floating iron islands 2000 miles away - Who are the real cowards?" -Bill Hicks


Its one thing to be a coward and another to be a fool...
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PostMon Dec 02, 2002 4:23 pm
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John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo

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JohnnyPsycho wrote:

So you're saying just because it's abstract and beyond you[r] own understanding that it doesn't extist? Hmmm, intersesting...

No, that's not at all what I meant. I was simply insinuating that this Jesus fellow that everyone seems to think they know based off the 6-times translated words (that have shown themselves countless times to ahve been altered by the Catholic Church) description of a drunkard that followed him around was either fabricated or greatly exaggerated. And that this God fellow is actually a metaphor for the complex inner workings of inter-personal relationships, dumb luck, and people themselves--plus a couple other things that I can't think of right now.
JohnnyPsycho wrote:

Let me rephrase: Do you believe, know, intuit, think, or have an idea about something passionately enough that you would risk your very being in defense of it?

Oh yes, several things, as I've said before. If I had to, I would die for the right to intellectaul freedom, freedom of speech, and a bunch of other things, the least of which would be the love of my family and friends, but that push has never come to shove. yet, and hopefully never.
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PostTue Dec 03, 2002 10:49 pm
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gfpaperboy22

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John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
I was simply insinuating that this Jesus fellow that everyone seems to think they know based off the 6-times translated words (that have shown themselves countless times to ahve been altered by the Catholic Church)


As far as I know, the closest, correct translation of the bible is the King James version, but even then... . Wasn't it originally in latin? I agree that its most likely been re-written by individuals who felt that certain parts needed more added, kinda like fansubers. They often times add more lines or change the text to how they think it should be. Then you also get the fact that every time something is translated from one language to another, you'll always come across something that can't be translated correctly.
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PostWed Dec 04, 2002 11:52 am
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John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo

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For example, the son of what's his face, who was almost always referred to by name, even up to the Arabic version. The King James is a Sixth Translation of the Bible. That's right: SIXTH. hell, the Latin that we see is actually a fifth, then fourth is Arabic. I think third was Syraic, then the original Latin--so I guess it depends what part of the Bible. There's one somewhere else, too. Some parts were written in Greek, and the first five, of course, in Hebrew.
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PostWed Dec 04, 2002 5:16 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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Can I just declare myself the benevolent dictator of the world, and be done with it? It seems everything would be great if I could just tell everyone that they're being stupid and to cut it out...

...'course, then again, there'd probably be a hundred assassination attempts within the first week, and I don't think I could stand that kind of pressure... Twisted Evil

gfpaperboy22 wrote:
Its one thing to be a coward and another to be a fool...

It's also one thing to be a guardian and another to be a bully...

here's something that vaguely religious to ponder... ever wonder why Angels are revered so much as being powerful, good spirits, when they're used as God's own "hitmen" all the time? Go ahead and research your Bible stories. Makes you wonder what it would be like if "Touched by an Angel" would show that freakin' Angel of Death laying waste to some civilizations every now and then... Twisted Evil
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PostThu Dec 05, 2002 4:46 pm
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counterparadox

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Ahh, but as we all learned from Dogma, the Angel of Death is no longer allowed in heaven . . . .

Seriously though, I think the Angel of Death was just created as a means for the Jews to have faith that their enemies would be smited. Or smoten. Or smoted. Or smiten. I don't know the past tense of the word 'smite'.

I'm too tired for this . . .
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PostThu Dec 05, 2002 5:05 pm
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John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo

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counterparadox wrote:
Ahh, but as we all learned from Dogma, the Angel of Death is no longer allowed in heaven . . . .

Seriously though, I think the Angel of Death was just created as a means for the Jews to have faith that their enemies would be smited. Or smoten. Or smoted. Or smiten. I don't know the past tense of the word 'smite'.

I'm too tired for this . . .

Furthur proving my point that trying to get anything but the general point (don't be a path to grond) out of the Bible is futile.
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PostThu Dec 05, 2002 7:47 pm
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Force-Attuned_Krogoth

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I think that most angels, including the angel of death, were devised as a way of causing the "last rewards." In other words, a myth that people will naturally be held responsible for their actions. In other other words, they make life fair. Many people need to believe in such things in order to control themselves.

JP, I can't speak for someone else. Thus, proof for me is merely what I can observe. True, it may be shown to me by someone else, but that doesn't mean I'm not the last word (at least for my own understanding.)
The basis for my logic is that, if it requires an (to borrow a word from mathematicians) ineligant explanation, it needs some proof (in my understanding) to back it up. If there are several explanations for something, and neither allows me to predict something other than what is directly described, then I use Occam's Razor to find the best solution. When something that should be described by such a theory turns out to be contradictory, I search for a more complete explanation.

In other words, I use the scientific method. Because the existence of Some Almighty Guy doesn't explain a whole lot about the world, (other than the big bang and some transcendental numbers like e and pi) provides no insight as to how things work (other than Some Guy said bam), and it would require Him to be outside of reality, I don't believe God is a viable explanation.

Do you believe that some religions are better/more effective than others? I think it is fairly obvious that some are better for some people, and that it is a question of how one's mind works. This is because religions anymore preach the means, not the end. This may or may not include the father in the story. I believe that all that really matters is the ends of making the world run smoothly, and how you get there doesn't matter.

Thus, I believe that ignorance, stupidity, retardation, brain farts, or overpowering rage is absolutely no excuse. I don't care whose fault it was, but if it caused a problem, particularly a serious problem, I don't want it to happen again. I personally believe that killing is almost always a bad thing, and very excruciatingly rarely a good thing, because people will almost always get mad and make things difficult and annoying.

However, if push came to shove, I would fight for the belief that I am an individual, with my own judgements. You can disagree with me in whatever way you think best, and I will use my own methods. I would almost never resort to violence, because it makes more problems than it solves. I would also risk my life for those people better able to sow the values of synergy into the populus than myself.
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PostThu Dec 05, 2002 8:24 pm
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gfpaperboy22

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JohnnyPsycho wrote:
Can I just declare myself the benevolent dictator of the world, and be done with it? It seems everything would be great if I could just tell everyone that they're being stupid and to cut it out...


I know how you feel, but your to late. Pepito has already claimed dictator. Twisted Evil

JohnnyPsycho wrote:

gfpaperboy22 wrote:
Its one thing to be a coward and another to be a fool...

It's also one thing to be a guardian and another to be a bully...


History is written by the winner, so if we turn Iraq into a parking lot, who will say were wrong. <- yeah bad come back but thats the only damn thing I could think of Laughing It is a one-sided, blind look at the issue but i'm admitting that now so you people don't flame the hell outta me.
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PostFri Dec 06, 2002 9:48 am
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