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  Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Why organized religion scares me
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Why organized religion scares me
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Spookmonkey

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JohnnyPsycho wrote:
Spookmonkey wrote:
to me, a zealot is anyone who is so blinded by their belief (in anything, not just religion) that they can not see any other way. Anything else but theirs ir horribly wrong and you must be shown to see the light, even if it kills you (in some instances, especially if it kills you). I'm willing to bet that those muslims who rioted are nothing short of religious zealots.


again, i ask you to be careful, because you have no clue what the entire situation was. Perhaps there was no other alternative for these people than to publicly protest, and things escalated from there. You don't know. Humans have a funny way of reacting to everything with violence, but again, that doesn't mean that certain extenuating circumstances didn't exist.

Strong beliefs are beautiful things, but can also create strong emotional responses, both from those with the belief (the Nigerian Muslims in this case) and those who without (the people who rule such strong attachment to religion as extremist).


None of us know the whle story behind this and none of us ever will. We can only go with what we know, what we believe and the casting of the bones.

There is always other alternitives than rioting where it ends up killing. It's basicly a sign of the primitive mind. Striking out blindly is a pure defense mechinism for those who believe they have no other option and backed into a corner. These people backed themselves into that corner when they could have just walked around it.

Strong beliefs are fine and dandy as long as they don't blind you. A person with strong beliefs has passion, passion is a good thing, right?
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PostMon Nov 25, 2002 3:28 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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so are you saying that you yourself lack strong beliefs? I think the true heart of this debate is whether any of you could see yourselves capable of committing a "crime" (being an act that goes against the mainstream culture's codes of ethics or morality) in defense of or in declaration of your beliefs.

Are you capable of having such "dangerous tendancies" that you yourself could commit acts of violence against those that act in defiance or threaten your belief system?

Do you have any beliefs strong enough that you would die or possibly kill for?

Are you a strong person because you yourself lack any strong convictions that would allow you to break through that invisible barrier?

Is it fair to even compare the actions of those with strong convictions to the inactions of those with weak ones?

You might not see yourself being able to "go nuts" like that simply because you have no point of reference. Nothing pulls you enough to risk life and limb. It's safer to have no convictions at all, but is that necessarily any better?
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PostMon Nov 25, 2002 3:38 pm
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counterparadox

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Gah! Posts are too damn long!

Sorry, I only skimmed all of that. But let me share my opinion, which doens't really count for shit, but I'm just going to put it out there. Oh, and this thread is not locked because logical discussion is good. As long as none of us are fantics, it's fine.

Religion should be a personal thing. I don't agree with any religion on this planet. Not even up to 50%. I believe in God (and my parents make me go to church even though it weakens my faith, ponder THAT one), but everytimte there is organized relgion, you get people trying to prove their faith by doing something stupid or try to 'reclaim the holy land' and end up with Crusades.

Zealots, in anything, not just relgion, are BAD. Cirumstances and culture and EVERYTHING changes, but a Zealot stays in the day that he became just that. You cannot reach a Zealot with logic. Islam is a peaceful religion. Zealots blow things out of proportion and kill. Islam is a great thing, it gives people hope and all the great things a relgion should. Zealots ruin it.
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PostMon Nov 25, 2002 5:38 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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you still didn't answer my question...
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PostMon Nov 25, 2002 6:11 pm
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counterparadox

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I didn't see your question. And what I said was just something general for anyone who read it to ponder. This thread got way too long way too fast for me to really say anything that ties into everything.

But I do think that everyone misses the point of religion. Religion isn't something that says "Women must be fully clothed, don't eat pork, and abortions are evil." Religion is a message that we should follow. And every major religion has the same message. But we all miss it. If you boil down everything Jesus said into 2 words (and it takes a LOT of boiling), do you know what you get?

Play nice.

That's it. Play nice. All he's saying is be kind when you can, go out of your way a little, even, and hope others do the same. Don't be an ass, don't harm others, and just all around be a nice person.


Yet everyone misses that and gets caught up in how porn is so evil or how we need to own the holy land. Bah. Stupid humans. None of that matters. At all. Everyone misses the point yet they think that they know the point. Thats what the problem is. Thats what I said on the first page of this thread. People think they know their religion, but they really, really, REALLY don't. Hence Zealots and problems in the middle east and hell, problems with everything. Every religion offers a way out. No one takes it, but 'religious' people are sure that they do.
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PostMon Nov 25, 2002 7:33 pm
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Spookmonkey

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JohnnyPsycho wrote:
so are you saying that you yourself lack strong beliefs? I think the true heart of this debate is whether any of you could see yourselves capable of committing a "crime" (being an act that goes against the mainstream culture's codes of ethics or morality) in defense of or in declaration of your beliefs.

Are you capable of having such "dangerous tendancies" that you yourself could commit acts of violence against those that act in defiance or threaten your belief system?

Do you have any beliefs strong enough that you would die or possibly kill for?

Are you a strong person because you yourself lack any strong convictions that would allow you to break through that invisible barrier?

Is it fair to even compare the actions of those with strong convictions to the inactions of those with weak ones?

You might not see yourself being able to "go nuts" like that simply because you have no point of reference. Nothing pulls you enough to risk life and limb. It's safer to have no convictions at all, but is that necessarily any better?


I have strong ideas, I voice a few of them all the time here and you know it. But I'm also smart enough not to commit a crime int he name of those beliefs. In the movie Dogma they couldn't have said this arguement better (Chris Rock is the one who said the beliefs/ideas speach, and it's one that more really need to get into their head). As I said before, an act of violence is the stupid mans (and woman's) reaction. Violence never solves anything, actually it probably spreads what your fighting against further unless you are ready to commit genocide. Nothing short of genocide will solve anything. And that's no solution in my book. Change to the world through teaching not through force.
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PostMon Nov 25, 2002 9:01 pm
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Force-Attuned_Krogoth

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I also have strong ideas. The first is that proof is king. Secondly, logic is Prime Minister.

I have never seen any believable indication that there is indeed an afterlife. Ghosts have never to my knowledge been reliably documented. Out-of-body and near-death experiences are just as easy to explain with asphyxiation as with God. Also, I have seen only one logical way in which an afterlife could physically occur. (In the novel Hobson's Choice, I forget the author, a small, weak brainwave actually moves outside of the person's head at the moment of death) Most believers tell me that "it wouldn't make sense for human lives to be so short." I respond with, "How many things have you seen in this world that don't make sense? How is this any different?" Maybe there is no almighty Thing that controls everything.

Another supposed use for the after life is the "eternal punishment/reward." I believe this stems from the fact that Life is Unfair. This is irrefutable. However, it doesn't mean that there must be some great equilizer out there. I think that the main reason the belief in an afterlife is so persistant is that many people can't hold themselves accountable for their actions; or at least not consciously. Thus, if they are told that their Karma will be justly rewarded, they do it through fear.

I'm really torn by this realization about religion: it is a way to get the population to do the right thing. It appears (IMHO) to be mostly made-up, and the people do it on their own. However, what happens when I go around telling people of my observations and my interpretations? For the smart/logical/responsible people, it makes no difference. But if the word gets out to the general public, it could obliterate all the good done by such religions. My personal belief is that you should do what seems to be best for all, and by damn be ready to explain yourself. I recognize that religions are valuable as moral police, but I also see that most of the people who are made better by it do so entirely by their own will, and that much of the church could easily be a lie. What should I do? Should I tell people, or keep it a secret? How well could this idea spread among such unwittingly self-bettering people?


On another note, I have looked into the beliefs of Mormonism, and they are no better, and no worse, than what I have discussed above. The reason I call Mormons "lemmings" has little to do with beliefs. Rather, Mormons tend to follow the utterly illogical DOCTRINES placed before them. I criticize them for their unthinking adherence to these non-religiously-based laws. Catholics in general aren't much better.


Finally, JP, you have partially captured the spirit of the ring story. There really isn't any true religion for everyone, but there are ones that are better for some people. What you have to do is look at which group, on the whole, behaves better. However, you assumed something about the ring: that it always works the same way. All that is said is that it has an effect, not a method. By your logic, Judaism would be the true religion, because it follows closest to the Old Testament. Remember, people can be good in different ways. I personally don't need a religion to tell me not to impede the progress of humanity, but others obviously don't handle the abstraction well.


All in all, there is something that I can't stress enough: religion is a personal decision. NOBODY should join a religion because they :
a) grew up in it;
b) were told by their parents that it was right;
c) were told by anyone else that it was right; or
d) think it looks good on a resume.

The ONLY acceptable reason to join a religion is because you feel it makes sense and makes you a better person. And please, give it a lot of thought. In fact, give everything a lot of thought. If it doesn't make sense, question it. If it seems stupid/dangerous, seriously consider not doing it. And most important of all, be prepared to explain yourself to others. Only you are accountable for your actions.


[I'm sorry if I sounded preachy there, but I hope everyone will take it to heart and think about the consequences of following my advice before he/she adopts it.]
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PostTue Nov 26, 2002 10:22 pm
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gfpaperboy22

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While I disagree with you on mormons following blindly, I agree with you about the fact that religion should never be forced upon you. Along with that I feel that it is never appropriate to force your religion upon others. Everyday I am told by a bunch of Assholes that because I'm mormon (or any other religion for that matter) I'm gonna burn in hell. I can understand churches teaching their youth about other religions, but damn, don't go telling them to "save" their friends to meet a quota! Thats just sick.
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PostTue Nov 26, 2002 11:54 pm
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Spookmonkey

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part of my beef with mormons is the whole "we'de rather you convert now, but we can just convert you AFTER YOUR DEAD" thing they got going. I know a number of mormons who's parents decided that their great grandparents suddenly needed to be converted to mormonism after being dead like 25-30 years. that and all the rules and limitations, oh one more thing, the fact that my friends STEP-mother kicked him out of the house due to my friend "not being mormon enough"... and with that we go back full circle to the zealous fanaticism.
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PostWed Nov 27, 2002 9:55 am
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counterparadox

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FAK, you're so right. Like I said before, zealots are just bad, religion is a personal thing and not a group thing, and the whole point of every religion is to send the message to 'Play Nice' although that's the one thing everyone seems to overlook.

Although, your own advice in that last paragraph about how you go preachy instructs us to think hard about your advice before we accept it, and if we haven't accepted it yet, then we can't take your advice and thus cannot think hard and accept it, leaving us in a lemming state. What a wonderful paradox! :::giggles:::
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PostWed Nov 27, 2002 11:24 am
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dougisfunny

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gfpaperboy22 wrote:
While I disagree with you on mormons following blindly, I agree with you about the fact that religion should never be forced upon you. Along with that I feel that it is never appropriate to force your religion upon others. Everyday I am told by a bunch of Assholes that because I'm mormon (or any other religion for that matter) I'm gonna burn in hell. I can understand churches teaching their youth about other religions, but damn, don't go telling them to "save" their friends to meet a quota! Thats just sick.


I always found the email funny that went omething like this

"...One day the pope calls all his head cardinals in for a meeting in the Vatican, he comes out from into the meeting room and tells the cardinals, "ok people I have some good news and some bad news,

The good news is I just got off the phone with Jesus Christ, he has returned!"

Cardinals, " Ok so what's the bad news?"

Pope, " he was calling from Salt lake City."
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PostWed Nov 27, 2002 12:02 pm
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gfpaperboy22

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LOL oh thats a good one. Laughing Spook, FAK, you shouldn't base your decision on a religion just based upon how some of the people in that church act. Every church is like that. Alot of members go insane about the caffiene thing, I could care less. I like sode damn it! <-as you should be able to tell, I ain't your average mormon! For the other "rules and regulations" like no smoking, drinking, etc. I like that. I don't need to drink or smoke to have fun, and its been proven that both aren't exactly healthy for ya. As for the Baptisms for the dead, eh, thats a hard one to explain for two reasons: 1. touchy subject and 2: skipped sunday school one to many times ^_^. As I know it, its only done by the request of a family for their relatives, not perfect strangers. oh, I better say this before anyone gets the wrong Idea; we do not actually perform baptisims with corpses. Thats just disgusting. No, we have actual living family members take the place of the deceased relatives during the baptism. Thats about as much as I can remember about it.
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PostWed Nov 27, 2002 3:02 pm
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counterparadox

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Still, the point is you convert people while they are already in the afterlife. I just don't get the point. They don't even have a say in it. Maybe they like their religion.

I think religion gets too caught up on the 'accessories'. "You can't drink", "You can't eat pork," etc. That stuff is not a way of life. It may be better for your health, but it won't make you a moral person, which is the whole point of religion. The irnoic part is, this is the stuff people follow/care most about. People don't ever seem to get the real message of the religion.

Thus, zealots are born. Thus, Crusades and Holocausts happen. Thus, organized religion is like communism. Works fantastic on paper, but humans go f*** it up. Period.


So yes, the don't drink and don't smoke clause of Mormanism is a good thing (healthwise at the very least), but I don't think it should be tied to a religion. I don't see how you MUST follow that in order to be a morman.
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PostWed Nov 27, 2002 3:43 pm
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gfpaperboy22

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well you don't have to, exactly. I view it as a "recommend"
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PostWed Nov 27, 2002 4:26 pm
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Spookmonkey

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gfpaperboy22 wrote:
LOL oh thats a good one. Laughing Spook, FAK, you shouldn't base your decision on a religion just based upon how some of the people in that church act. Every church is like that. Alot of members go insane about the caffiene thing, I could care less. I like sode damn it! <-as you should be able to tell, I ain't your average mormon! For the other "rules and regulations" like no smoking, drinking, etc. I like that. I don't need to drink or smoke to have fun, and its been proven that both aren't exactly healthy for ya. As for the Baptisms for the dead, eh, thats a hard one to explain for two reasons: 1. touchy subject and 2: skipped sunday school one to many times ^_^. As I know it, its only done by the request of a family for their relatives, not perfect strangers. oh, I better say this before anyone gets the wrong Idea; we do not actually perform baptisims with corpses. Thats just disgusting. No, we have actual living family members take the place of the deceased relatives during the baptism. Thats about as much as I can remember about it.


I don't judge mormons by those people, I judge mormons on the teachings they have and the fact they am a damn cult. seriously, I mostly just pick on my mormon friends, it's all in good fun, they know it, I know it (I don't really have to much of a religion for them to poke at Razz). Most of my mormon friends by mormon standards are horrible mormons. Basicly they believe in what is in the core of the religion and disregard the rest.

And having 1-2 glasses (you can replace the word glass with bottle) of red wine a day is proven to be healthy. There are some other alcohols that have proven to have healthy effects on the body. So mlah, you can go drink. Go on, shoo.

Converting the dead is wrong no matter how you do it. they lived and died their own ways, no need for snot-nosed decendants converting them to a religion they had possibly never heard of in their time. If my great great grandchild tried to convert me after I died I would come back and haunt them for the rest of their life, assuring that their life is full of nothing but pain and sorrow. And blood, lots of blood.
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PostWed Nov 27, 2002 4:52 pm
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