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Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Yet another philosophical/religious discussion/rant
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God tells us he's perfect.
Those who believe also say he's perfect.
I, looking from the outside, say he's selfish. He asks us to believe in his majesty and worship him in everything we do, every moment of our lives, and then gives us absolutely no evidence of his perfection! (Before we argue about this again, I'll point out that we have agreed that the Universe and everything inside of it is ambiguous.) All I see in Christianity and the Sister Religions is exploitation of the inherent fears and hopes of humans. In most cases it works out for the better of all, but it's still exploitation. What difference does it make if I don't bow down to the Holy invisible man who communicates through social outcasts? The Universe still runs, and that's all I need. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:32 am
TheWorldWeKnow
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject:
okie dokes, a few responses:
1) This is why He's not selfish: what would a perfect being do? well, since He's the only object of perfection in the universe, it would be less than perfect to NOT make everything for His glory - anything less would be to deny his perfection; thus, it's not selfish: it's, well, um, perfect
once again, I'll tell you why it's wonderful that He doesn't reveal Himself in all His glory: you tell me, is it a higher glorification of an individual if you are FORCED to love Him, or is it better if you love Him of your own will? by not coming down and standing on the earth and zapping everyone's minds with God brain-washing, he's given us free choice, and I believe loving out of your own choice is a greater glorification of an individual (or of a god) than forced love, any day
"the universe runs and that's all you need?" well, Christians, of course, believe that that's not it, which is why it IS necessary to worship this "invisible" God - the idea of an afterlife is why we believe it's necessary
"inherent fears and hopes of humans" - are you suggesting that every human has the same basic hopes and fears, and that they are ingrained in our very selves? well then, maybe Lewis had a point in saying that there's possibly a God-centered reason for this...
Sat Jul 05, 2003 12:06 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
I only said they were inherent, not consistent. Notice how many religions there are. Christianity is not the only, nor even the largest, organized religion available. It just happens to be prevalent, some would say dominant, here in America. But there are a few consistencies.
1. Most people fear the unkown. Children are afraid of the dark until they know what it contains. Adults still fear what they can't identify. Look at current horror films. The characters don't know what's going on, so they're afraid. (When they do know, they fight back and it is classified as action) The audience is similarly frightened by the unseen assailants.
2. Humans fear death. Death, at least in this plane of existence, is final and unknowable. Thus, it's scary. For a more apt description of this, see #1.
3. Big, mean, nasty things are out there. "Lions and tigers and bears, oh my" sounds trite, but it exists more often than you care to think about. Everyone has times where they don't think they can survive, or succeed. It makes us uncomfortable. But if we know we have help, then it seems easier and less daunting.
4. Humans are remarkably resilient and adaptive. I'm sure you've all been told that "you can do anything you put your mind to." The reason this saying is so common is that it's almost always true. The human mind is very good at finding patterns and connections between things, and at developing new connections. If you work at something, chances are you'll figure something out.
5. The easiest person to fool is yourself. I've convinced myself that this is true, and so can you. If you think along a path enough times, then that connection becomes automatic. Eventually, once you trigger that chain of thoughts, it is impossible to stop it before it concludes. This can very easily happen without being noticed.
Truisms 1-3 are places where people look for the comfort of God. The other two can, with enough practice, look (from the inside) like a protective spirit. Notice also how these similarities between people have nothing to do with holiness or values. They are not something a perfect God would give to the creatures of his perfect world.
Let me now pose an official question:
What difference does it make if I don't worship/believe in God? Any and all answers are appreciated.[/list] _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Sat Jul 05, 2003 2:44 pm
TheWorldWeKnow
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject:
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
They are not something a perfect God would give to the creatures of his perfect world.
I quite disagree on this point. Let me continue to overuse a statement I've been making: forced love is not real love. When we come into the world, we are given the choice of whether or not to love God. Which each moment and each decision, we make this choice. For loving God is glorifying God, and visa-versa. When we make a decision to not love God, to not glorify him, we are introducing sin into the world. We are turning what could be a "perfect" self into an imperfect self. Sin is not simply doing something bad - it has a more concise definition than that: Sin is doing something that is against God's will. It is the act of NOT glorifying God.
When we disobey God, we deserve death. We are imperfect - why should we exist? However, God's love is perfect, and is made perfect through our shortcomings (2 Cor 12:9). But how do we realize that we HAVE shortcomings?
Humans are an arrogant species - this is part of our charm. We think we can do everything on our own. So, God uses different means to get through to us and to show us that we are not living according to His word. He may choose to reveal Himself by some miraculous means (though this is generally only done to believers...which makes sense when you understand Christ's belief about unbelievers who see miracles), or he may do it by other means. One of these ways may be through fear.
I am arguing that fear is part of God's perfect plan. As you said, most humans have fear - whether it is of death, of the unknown, or whatever. This fear drives men to seek comfort. If God claims to be the ultimate comfort, it would make sense that he has given fear as a gift, to help guide us. As you said, fear is often used to drive men to believe in some god, some spiritual being. Perhaps this is God's plan?
Uh, these are kind of ramblings...I have no idea what the theology regarding fear is. But this makes sense to me, and I think it to be true.
Quote:
Let me now pose an official question:
What difference does it make if I don't worship/believe in God? Any and all answers are appreciated.
Only one difference, and it is this: if the Christian God exists, it matters more than anything that you believe in God. God became man to die for us - but he did not die as a general sacrifice for all. His death was not so easy as that. He, in a way, died over and over and over again. His suffering was immense, because He died for each and every one of us. His love was that great. Knowing that most of the world was going to reject Him, he still died for every one of us. And, as my old pastor said, "He would've died even if there was just one sinner in the world."
I'm not saying that you, or any other non-believer, OWES Him (though I of course believe it to be true that we all owe our lives to God). What I'm trying to point out is that it makes a difference to God. He loves us more than life itself, and He proved it. Every one of us are precious in His sight. The very son of God, the very King of Kings, died a lowly criminal's death, tortured, beaten with whips and metal pieces, left to suffocate, abandoned by His closest friends, because he loved us THAT much.
God is compassionate. God is caring. Jesus cried - He's not above sadness! He died for us, that's why is matters what you think.
And it really may not matter to the rest of the world, but it matters to the ONLY one who's important: God.
Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:44 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject: God still isn't necessarily what he claims . . .
You've got a good point about fear being part of god's plan. He certainly appears to take the "I'm doing this for your own good" view.
But I'm really not sure about this whole Jesus thing. Why did God need to send his son to die? I've struggled with this question a lot, and have only come up with a few possible answers (and I can bet TWWK will prefer the second).
First, it's possible that there are rules which God cannot break. For example, there is some form of extraUniversal police crew that monitors what's going on here and doesn't allow sin to occur without retribution. After a while of trying to get us to clean up our own mess, he finally did it himself. Perhaps he was sent to prison for a while, or otherwise punished. Perhaps he really died. Less inflamatorally, it may have been not a big deal to God, something akin to cleaning the terrarium every so often.
Second, God didn't want to look fickle in front of his loyal subjects. He had already put his foot down on the matter of sinning, but realized that it wasn't going to work. So he figured out a way to clear up the whole mess while still retaining the love and admiration of millions of followers (and picking up a few more to boot). He made a beau gest of offering his son/self, and continued on his merry way.
Third, it wasn't necessary in the first place. This explanation allows God to retain his OT-style brutality while transitioning to a more customer-friendly style. Perhaps Jesus wasn't God's son but a criminal angel sent to be punished. Perhaps it was just a test for Jesus, and had little to do with us. Perhaps Jesus was not speaking for God when he said what he said. Unless God actually was Jesus, it was not like the New Testament God to coerce one person into taking the rap for everyone. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Sat Jul 05, 2003 6:23 pm
TheWorldWeKnow
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject: Re: God still isn't necessarily what he claims . . .
Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
But I'm really not sure about this whole Jesus thing. Why did God need to send his son to die? I've struggled with this question a lot, and have only come up with a few possible answers (and I can bet TWWK will prefer the second).
Okay, here's the deal. In the OT, you get a God who is just as disgusted (no more, no less) with sin as in the NT. The price of sin has always been death. Because of our sin, God says we deserve to die. But he loves us too much to let go of us that easily. He gave the pre-Jesus people a way out - through sacrifices. By taking certain animals who are without defect (and thus, symbolic of being perfect and sinless) and sacrificing them, you transfer YOUR guilt and sin onto this innocent creature. And so, you're okay for your sins up until that point. But as soon as you commit another sin, you're deserving of death again, and you must sacrifice another animal.
God sent Jesus to change all this and offer us the New Covenant of forgiveness. Through Him, our sins are washed away ONCE, and after that one time we are cleansed for good.
So, why Jesus instead of someone else? Well, animals just don't cut it. You need a truly sinless being to die for everyone's sins. An innocent person to take OUR place, to die instead of us. There is only one who is perfect - God. And so, God became man and died for us. He took our place in dying. No one else is pure, so no one else could do it.
There are other reasons for God becoming human, but the one stated above tells why He became human AND died for us.
Quote:
First, it's possible that there are rules which God cannot break. For example, there is some form of extraUniversal police crew that monitors what's going on here and doesn't allow sin to occur without retribution. After a while of trying to get us to clean up our own mess, he finally did it himself. Perhaps he was sent to prison for a while, or otherwise punished. Perhaps he really died. Less inflamatorally, it may have been not a big deal to God, something akin to cleaning the terrarium every so often.
You're right - I don't agree with this one.
I believe God is all-powerful, thus, I don't believe there are rules in the universe that God can't break.
Quote:
Second, God didn't want to look fickle in front of his loyal subjects. He had already put his foot down on the matter of sinning, but realized that it wasn't going to work. So he figured out a way to clear up the whole mess while still retaining the love and admiration of millions of followers (and picking up a few more to boot). He made a beau gest of offering his son/self, and continued on his merry way.
I don't agree with this one, either.
This wasn't just some minor event. First of all, God became man. He came to earth in a human form, which is much below Him, because of His love for us. Then, He suffered and died. God died. What the heck - God died for us? It's pretty mind-blowing to think about. But yes, He died - and it wasn't an easy death. Like I said before, it was an immensely painful death - physically and emotionally. Physically, Christ suffered hematosis because of the stress; He was nailed through some of the largest nerves in the human body; He was whipped 39 times with a leather whip containing pieces of bone and/or metal; He was already suffering from shock when He started walking to Golgotha; He spent three hours nailed to and hanging down from a wooden cross; and oh yeah, the evilness of all mankind, past, present, and future, weighed down upon Him. Emotionally, He had to suffer from knowing that the ones He died for were the ones who were killing him; His best friends in the world (and closets followers) deserted Him and denied even knowing Him; His mother watched Him die; and most of all, He suffered knowing that His Father wanted Him to die.
This was no small thing for God.
Quote:
Third, it wasn't necessary in the first place. This explanation allows God to retain his OT-style brutality while transitioning to a more customer-friendly style.
God is unchanging. God has always been love. You've got to realize where this OT "brutality" comes from. The NT states that we ALL have within us certain morals, and that we disobey God when we go against these morals, even if we've never been exposed to God. God helped the Israelites destroy many of the people who were evil, who denied God again and again. They deserved death (and do we all...which leads to why Jesus came). As a matter for fact, the Israelites, God's chosen ones, deserved death, too! And thousands of them were killed by God. God's love for the righteous ancestors of the Israelites was the only reason that they survived.
God is not brutal. He is just and loving. And He is exactly the same in the OT as in the new.
Quote:
Perhaps Jesus wasn't God's son but a criminal angel sent to be punished.
Jesus fulfilled all of the OT prophecies...ALL of them. God would simply not allow a criminal angel to fulfill these prophecies of a Messiah. And there is already a place for criminal angels...
Quote:
Perhaps it was just a test for Jesus, and had little to do with us.
This would've made Jesus a liar. If it was a test for Him, then everything He would've said would have been a lie.
And anyway, Jesus was tested, at the onset of His ministry. And he passed with flying colors.
Quote:
Perhaps Jesus was not speaking for God when he said what he said.
Yes, you could think that. Jesus, according to this, was just simply a madman. Of course, you would have to deny almost every single event in the Gospels to believe this - and even Jews (and Muslims), today, believe that much of what He said to be true.
But, did Jesus speak for God when He said He was God? Well, the teachings and miracles were seen by many, many people. And, as Jesus said, a house divided against itself cannot stand. Jesus' amazing power came from somewhere. If it was from the devil (in which case Jesus would NOT be speaking for God), Jesus would be hurting his own cause by speaking against sin, leading a sinless life, and driving out demons. So, if you believe the Christian God exists, then Jesus was speaking on behalf on Him.
Quote:
Unless God actually was Jesus, it was not like the New Testament God to coerce one person into taking the rap for everyone.
Well, God, being perfect, could be the only One to take the rap for everyone.
Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:22 am
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
If God decided that the price of sinning is death, why in Hell is there an easy way out? He didn't want to punish us, so he gave us a break. Why does he still enforce the rules so strictly? How does killing an innocent make you less sinful?
TWWK, you're not even trying to answer my questions, you're just regurgitating. For example, I said, "what if Jesus wasn't God?" and you responded with "Nope, he said he was God." Think about it and get back to me. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:41 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
Lots of things I've been spotting in both your posts that need work, but first, a couple somewhat apt commentaries:
Wait a sec--God is super powerful, has lots of majesty, and burns lots of bad guys. Oh my God! God is Trogdor: The Burninator!
FAK: You keep forgetting that there is a very good possibility of an all-radiation being existing outside of our own universe, but TWWK keeps failing to explain why an omnipotent being would need to pour so much time and work into making us what we are, so we can congregate around the worshipping site and profess our love for him. Why he would need that glory.
FAK: You also listeed 5 reasons that could just as easily be attributed to God through necessity. And time and time again, the world has said not to be perfect, and neither are we. Yet, anyway.
Hmmm... I'm sure there was more. Oh well. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:09 pm
dougisfunny
Joined: Oct 29, 2002
Post subject:
why would God want imperfect beings to worship him?
Why did god create evil/sin? _________________ The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Okay, I've been itching to do this sort of thing since my "hiatus"... I haven't read all of the back posts, though I'll probably get to them eventually and tell all of you that you are wrong, because, well, that's just how I am...
Here is the Universe according to St. Johnny the Psychotic
1) The most important part, which shall never be questioned within my mind, is that there is in fact at least one being superior to all life as we know it, and at least one constant or force that keeps the entire creaky boat we call existance afloat. Is there an all-powerful, all-knowing God? Of course there is, dumbass, and I will point it out why in my next point...
2) Science don't know everything, because science is inherently limited by certain constraints. Those constraints are what I call the 5 dimensions of knowing. Human beings are only able to understand the universe around them by five dimensions: sight, smell, touch, feel, and taste. Science is constrained by those 5 dimensions, and that will never, ever change as long as human beings exist. Maybe, maybe someday another species will come along to take over, and they may have additional senses that percieve things that we can only imagine exist, such as that figment of our imagination known as "time". To say that it is possible for science to one day "unlock" all that human beings have been unable to see for all of their existance is idiocy, because even all of our experimentations and careful calculations can't tell us why there is such a thing as existance. And if you're going to wait for science to eventually discover the eternal enigma of our exsistance, then you're really just putting your faith in another religion, except that the religion called science is much more vague and no less self-centered (ie: "if you believe anything else, then you're an imbecile")
Fact of the matter is, people who base their entire lives upon only what they can observe are limiting themselves. The universe is much bigger than our current 5 dimensional universe suggests, and even science has proven that. We now know that there is such a thing as "invisible light" (infrared, ultraviolet, and all the other lovely radiation given off by the stars, TV sets, or the occasional uranium chunk laying in the ground).
3) Emotion defies logic, and while it may seem like a hinderance, emotion is a very powerful tool... or a weapon. Logic will forever remain unnecessary and a hinderance to human creativity and ingenuity. Humans aren't supposed to fly, or else we would be born with wings, but just try to tell that to the Wright Brothers. Humans weren't meant to live in the ocean, but just tell that to Jacques Cousteau. Brilliance and genius is always guided by an emotional drive to achieve what logic says should not be done.
4) Good and evil do not exist, only what is constructive or destructive. To kill is destructive. To kill someone who angers you is constructive to your ego, but destructive to the guy you killed, and ultimately destructive to the society. That is why killing is a sin. Drugs are destructive to your body, but constructive to your id's pleasure-seeking instincts.
Sin is what is destructive, to self or to family or to community or to society or to karma, whatever. The realization that sin is all around us naturally comes from the realization that existance is naturally destructive. In order for you to continue to live, others must continue to die, and that's a cold hard fact that you have to live with. You can't live for yourself, because every action you make affects everything and everyone around you. Even not making any actions affects everything around you. To live responsibly is to avoid unnecessary destructiveness in your life.
(Also, for those of you unfamiliar with the idea of ego and id, the "id" is often refered to as the "baser part of one's psyche", although I don't believe the id to be necessarily lowly or evil. It is simply the "instinct" part of your brain, the hard-wiring that you get in your DNA that tells you that pain is bad and pleasure is good. The ego is basically your reasoning capacity, and the super-ego or ego-ideal is the idealized image of the self)
5) God is not an anthropomorphic being. God is not some dude sitting on a throne with his finger over the "smite" button on his computer console. God also isn't a consciousness in the way in which we may know it. God isn't a singular being, and yet cannot be designated to an "abstract idea" either. God is both physical and non-physical, because to actually pin down what God is would be futile and unnecessary. Who the fuck cares what the hell God is or what it's thinking? God thinks, and it's done. That's all you gotta understand. And no, God wouldn't suddenly decide one day to make pi equal 13 one day, because that would also be stupid and unnecessary. The fact that constants in the universe exist is probably the single piece of "physical" evidence that God exists. Why do the pieces fit together so well? Because something drives them to do that, and to think "Oh well, it could have just been a fluke" is like saying the Wright Brothers were just lucky bastards who stumbled upon flight. The whole universe exists and runs off of (if I may be excused of using yet another anthropomorphising concept) God's heartbeat. God will exist forever, because there will always be things of greater magnitude than humanity. No, God is not some guy with white robes and a beard. God is everything that you will never achieve and will never know, and that humanity will never know.
6) I am not an agnostic. While I do believe that it is ultimately futile to know what "physical" form God takes, or what God "thinks", I do believe it is very possible to know God from a strictly emotional sense. A person who cannot believe in anything beyond what logic and the 5 dimensions tells them can never know God, because they are too hindered and limited in their knowledge of the universe. Emotion is a gift from God. So is logic. That's why the two battle forever in our brains and in our societies, because God creates things in perfect balance.
7) Existance is based upon opposing forces. Chaos and order. Destructive and Constructive. Life and death. Animate and inanimate. Male and female. Vanilla and chocolate. Sometimes the opposing forces are more complex, like id, ego, and ego-ideal. Electrical currents. Magnetic poles. But realize that existance itself is conflict. Good would not exist without evil, and pleasure would not exist without pain.
To the smartasses who say "If there's a God, why does he let bad stuff happen to us?", I will very happily say "Why do you allow bad stuff to happen to us?" Why does God create war? Gee, I wonder why... could it be because war would not exist without peace? When's the last time you got off your lazy ass to change things around here? And before you try to get up in my face with a debate about whether humans are hardwired to be war-mongering creeps, let me put that debate to rest right now. Yes. Yes, humans love to kill, and yes, we are hardwired to be as destructive as possible, because we are also hardwired to be a creative as possible as well. Evil will always exist purely in the hearts of men just as good will. Man is equally capable of all things. So quit trying to think that you can disavow God by thinking that an all-loving God couldn't exist in such a shitty world, because it's your own freakin' fault it got this way, dumbass. Why does God allow disease and war and famine? Because we still haven't figured out the f*cking lesson, retards, that's why.
9) And before you get on my ass about whether or not God is loving or vengeful, let me point out that there's no difference. Ever piss off a member of your family? Just because your parents love you doesn't mean they can't beat the crap outta you for being a complete dumbass kid.
10) Death is not the end of things, it's just a continuation. To believe that you existance will end when your brain stops functioning is pure human egotism. Of course you continue to exist after you die! Remember, energy and mass do not simply disappear. So what if your body becomes wormfood? You have now become the worms. And just where do you think all that electrical and thermal energy goes that your body produces, hmmm? And where does it come from? In essence, without getting all Disney on you, you will always continue to exist, forever and ever, until all energy and mass simply decides to stop existing all together.
11) Every past experience of a person hearing the voice of God or seeing a god has been a human being interacting with something greater than itself. Angels and the ancient gods do exist, because, again, there are always things greater than us, and they would naturally know more than we would. The angels and the gods are simply things that know things beyond our 5 dimensional concept of the universe. Always, always be wary of things that claim that they are messengers of or are the one true God, because they are probably lying. But don't discount anything else they say, because they always know more about the world than you do. That is why the Bible, the Koran, and every other religious teaching and printing is to be taken with the utmost care and caution, because although they may all claim to be the truth, there is plenty of editorializing contained within them all. You just have to learn to sift through the opinions and get to the truth, because it does exist in there, otherwise people wouldn't[/b] be going to church all the time.
12) Because the number zero exists, God [i]must exist. I don't believe I have to go any further than that.
13) Satan is not the opposing force to God, because God created all things that we percieve as good and evil. God is its own opposing force.
14) Saying that you can live a happy, normal life without the influence of religion and faith is like saying your heart doesn't beat every moment of your life. Just because you aren't always aware of it doesn't mean that it isn't there. Saying that all you really need to do in life is to get by and be a "good a person as you can" is like saying "I don't believe in geometry and physics, but I can still be a pretty good billiards player". Religion, faith, and morality shape the society you live in, shape the laws and the customs of everyone around you. Just because you don't believe in Christianity doesn't mean that your life as an American hasn't already been shaped by Christian morality. If that were true, you'd be walking down Main Street naked with live cats velcroed to your chest while shoplifting from the 7-11 more often. Your concept of "good" has already been shaped by the religions that you have decided to ignore. But realize that society can not exist without religion and morality. And please, get over yourself before you decide to velcro Mittens to freshly shaved chest, you freak.
15) Straight lines do not exist. Light does not travel in a straight line, but in a curve so huge that from our standpoint it looks straight. In reality, since all space is curved, so is the path of a beam of light. The fact that light bends when it meets certain forces or collides with some matter is evidence that light has natural curve to it in the first place. The full path of a light beam would, if not disturbed by any matter in its path, return to its source. Of course, by the time a ray of light from a star would return, the same star would have long burned out.
16) Time does not exist. Time travel is dreaming. Something like time does exist, but only outside of our 5 dimensions of understanding.
17) Life exists outside of our scientific reasonings of time and space and our 5 dimensional human limits of understanding the universe. Things that live outside of these barriers are constantly interacting with us without our realizing it because, of course, we [i]can't[/] see them!!! Duh.
1 Abortions are murder. But sometimes murder is necessary. No one has the right to impose their own morality codes upon another, which is why people who bomb abortion clinics are no better than people who bomb government buildings. The only difference is political, and neither one is any more or less justified, which is why I have always seen violent Pro-Lifers in the same light as the Al-Qaeda: just misguided tools who completely missed the point.
19) People who refuse to believe in God are cheating themselves. People who think that their faith in God will make them better people are fooling themselves.
20) Because negative numbers exist, I believe in God. Because positive numbers exist, I believe in God. Because fractions exist, I believe in God. Because idiotic religious debates exist, I believe in God. Because athiests exist, I believe in God. And last but not least, because I am able to type out some of the most mind-numbing ramblings and actually make people read them, I believe in God.
Thank you, and good night... jerk-faces... _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:22 am
Nobuyuki
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
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As previously stated in the "What do you think of your fellow members" thread:
Nobuyuki wrote:
JP: always imaginative. livens up any discussion immensely
*grabs popcorn* _________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."- C.S. Lewis
"Superman can't be emo. He can't cut himself."-CP
Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:40 am
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
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Wow, JP, that certainly was long. I'll go with the often used piece by piece quotes.
JohnnyPsycho wrote:
1) The most important part, which shall never be questioned within my mind, is that there is in fact at least one being superior to all life as we know it, and at least one constant or force that keeps the entire creaky boat we call existance afloat. Is there an all-powerful, all-knowing God? Of course there is, dumbass, and I will point it out why in my next point...
I can't wait to refute that post.
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Science is constrained by those 5 dimensions, and that will never, ever change as long as human beings exist. Maybe, maybe someday another species will come along to take over, and they may have additional senses that percieve things that we can only imagine exist, such as that figment of our imagination known as "time" To say that it is possible for science to one day "unlock" all that human beings have been unable to see for all of their existance is idiocy, because even all of our experimentations and careful calculations can't tell us why there is such a thing as existance. And if you're going to wait for science to eventually discover the eternal enigma of our exsistance, then you're really just putting your faith in another religion, except that the religion called science is much more vague and no less self-centered (ie: "if you believe anything else, then you're an imbecile")
Fact of the matter is, people who base their entire lives upon only what they can observe are limiting themselves. The universe is much bigger than our current 5 dimensional universe suggests, and even science has proven that. We now know that there is such a thing as "invisible light" (infrared, ultraviolet, and all the other lovely radiation given off by the stars, TV sets, or the occasional uranium chunk laying in the ground).
You almost made the point I'm going to make. We can't sense radio waves, can we? But somehow we have these danged tele thingies and radios, along with RADAR and walky talkies. We may not discover EVERYTHING, but e certainly have in a short thirty thousand years reached far beyond our natural existence. Again, as FAK pointed out (although I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you haven't gotten to that post yet), God is a VERY unsound scientific hypothesis.
And let me pose this question: if there was no thing as existence, or if our existence was very different, would you know the difference. Would our existence not still be chalked up to miracle if we were a sentient, self perpetuating mass of radiation. Wouldn't we still say, "what were the odds of all these perfect pieces coming together?" if the gravitational constant were ten times what it is, and we were a seires of aiding nuclear reactions, or even if we simply didn't use carbon in our anatomy? It is very possible to have silicon based life, carbon just tends to be more efficient outside of extreme temperatures. How, I ask, can religion tell the difference?
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3) Emotion defies logic, and while it may seem like a hinderance, emotion is a very powerful tool... or a weapon. Logic will forever remain unnecessary and a hinderance to human creativity and ingenuity.
That's not logic you're talking about--that's stupidity that you're thinking of. Embetterment of the species, and reproduction, based on our innate instincts seems logical enough. There is nothing that says a careful, well thought plans won't discover something new. Emotion, while conflicting with logic, is not necesserily counter-productive of it. Emotion is necessery because we don't work off of pure logic (although FAK comes pretty close), and therefore need another form of driving instinct to tell us how to act in a given situation.
#4 has nothing I disagree with.
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5) Who the fuck cares what the hell God is or what it's thinking? God thinks, and it's done. That's all you gotta understand. And no, God wouldn't suddenly decide one day to make pi equal 13 one day, because that would also be stupid and unnecessary. The fact that constants in the universe exist is probably the single piece of "physical" evidence that God exists. Why do the pieces fit together so well? Because something drives them to do that, and to think "Oh well, it could have just been a fluke" is like saying the Wright Brothers were just lucky bastards who stumbled upon flight.
A) The Wright Brothers did get lucky. Even they said so. They stumbled upon a really good wing shape. Their engine sucked. Thier materials sucked. And they set the history books by about a month. Once it was determined that we had the ability to provide the power, hundreds of people set out to make powered flight happen.
B) I care what God is. Knowing that God is, simply isn't enough for me. I have to understand the world around me. I would suggest as reading material, Stranger in a Strange Land. It makes some very fine points.
C) As for fundimental constants being a sign of God, refer back to the "would you know the difference" argument me and FAK are always making.
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The whole universe exists and runs off of (if I may be excused of using yet another anthropomorphising concept) God's heartbeat. God will exist forever, because there will always be things of greater magnitude than humanity. No, God is not some guy with white robes and a beard. God is everything that you will never achieve and will never know, and that humanity will never know.
I partially agree with you here, although I think god is partly what man aspires to be, and that we will one day reach said omega stage. I mean, weren't you paying attention during End of Eva?
#6 I have a few problems with, mostly the repetition of our senses being a great limitation, and emotion somehow being anythng more than chemical responses, designed to help us cope with our existence. Then again, if you want to call those chemical responses God...
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...So quit trying to think that you can disavow God by thinking that an all-loving God couldn't exist in such a shitty world, because it's your own freakin' fault it got this way, dumbass. Why does God allow disease and war and famine? Because we still haven't figured out the f*cking lesson, retards, that's why.
So far, no one's made those arguments you're referring to. I'm afraid we're all a little bright to ask those questions.
And no, we weren't going to make a loving/vengeful god statement. We're not trying to disprove the existence of a higher being by saying that his actions are in conflict, we're going for the scientific route.
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In essence, without getting all Disney on you, you will always continue to exist, forever and ever, until all energy and mass simply decides to stop existing all together.
Ah, randomly dispersed radiation...
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11) Every past experience of a person hearing the voice of God or seeing a god has been a human being interacting with something greater than itself. Angels and the ancient gods do exist, because, again, there are always things greater than us, and they would naturally know more than we would.
So, by your logic... oh wait, God is ABOVE logic. I forgot that part. So, according to your interpretation of existence, things greater than us exist because they have to, right? May I point to the second card I posted. Oh wait, that would imply logic, but we can't have any of that funny business, now can we?
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12) Because the number zero exists, God must exist. I don't believe I have to go any further than that.
I sincerely hope that was a joke. I also sincerely doubt that 1-(-1) could be anything besides 2.
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14) Saying that you can live a happy, normal life without the influence of religion and faith is like saying your heart doesn't beat every moment of your life. Just because you aren't always aware of it doesn't mean that it isn't there. Saying that all you really need to do in life is to get by and be a "good a person as you can" is like saying "I don't believe in geometry and physics, but I can still be a pretty good billiards player".
Your analogy is incorrect. You can very easily be a decent pool player if you think some other force, supernaturaly or otherwise, is at work that applies only to billiards, but neither explains nor coincides with any of the rest of reality. And I didn't realize that belief in God was required for chemical reactions to take place. We better teach these monkeys religion AND QUICK.
[qoute]...If that were true, you'd be walking down Main Street naked with live cats velcroed to your chest while shoplifting from the 7-11 more often. Your concept of "good" has already been shaped by the religions that you have decided to ignore. But realize that society can not exist without religion and morality. And please, get over yourself before you decide to velcro Mittens to freshly shaved chest, you freak.[/quote]
Now click your heels together and say, "Nightweaver, Nightewaver, Nightweaver." But seriously, whose to say you can't believe in the rights of others, simply because you don't subscribe to the religion that in style at the time. I've always believed that people have the rights to the fruits of thier labor. Another irony I find, as these rich business execs apprearantly don't, despite thier proffessed religion (not to say that there's something in the religion that causes it. I'm simply pointing out that the most devious of people will rise to the top in any situation. Why they put on the facade of thinking they will go to this heavan place is beyond me. I guess some people do draw comfort from what they will never achieve). Wow, those were some long and pointless parenthesis. And I'm pretty sure communists failings were not lack of religion.
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15) Straight lines do not exist. Light does not travel in a straight line, but in a curve so huge that from our standpoint it looks straight. In reality, since all space is curved, so is the path of a beam of light. The fact that light bends when it meets certain forces or collides with some matter is evidence that light has natural curve to it in the first place. The full path of a light beam would, if not disturbed by any matter in its path, return to its source. Of course, by the time a ray of light from a star would return, the same star would have long burned out.
Okay, this part made absolutely no sense. For one, I've never heard of light changing paths without some force acting upon it, and two--space is quite infinite. Two galaxies on opposite edges of the universe aren't suddenly going to collide with eachother without a really bigass wormhole. And last time I checked, an object in motion tended to stay in motion.
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16) Time does not exist. Time travel is dreaming. Something like time does exist, but only outside of our 5 dimensions of understanding.
So what DO you call this thing that's kind of like time, but isn't quite. I'd like to call it "time" myself.
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17) Life exists outside of our scientific reasonings of time and space and our 5 dimensional human limits of understanding the universe. Things that live outside of these barriers are constantly interacting with us without our realizing it because, of course, we can't[/] see them!!! Duh.
But you can sure as hell bet they're interracting with us because of all the... evidence we can... see. Of them... interacting with us. It's all out there--I swear, you just can't see, measure, or understand it. In fact, it's [i]beyond your understanding, or even mine. But trust me, it's there, whether the fact that it interacts with us or not is moot due to lack of interaction.
I'm going to completely agree with you on number 18, except I draw the line at sentience, rather than conception.
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19) People who refuse to believe in God are cheating themselves. People who think that their faith in God will make them better people are fooling themselves.
I must disagree here. I see the same effects that you attribute the cause to being god, and only feel cheated of a useful tool to oversimplify the universe, so that I may cram it into my head.
Number 20 didn't make any sense, either.
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Thank you, and good night... jerk-faces...
Yeah, yeah... have a nice day, cockbite. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Thu Jul 17, 2003 1:24 pm
dillpops
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
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I really don't want to get involved in this but:
Has anyone seen SEVEN?
I saw it last week, it was...interesting, to say the least. I might buy it, but I don't know why. But it was VERY good with plot twists at the end.
I sort of thought it went in here because it was to do with religion... _________________ rednekbob9: 1: You're Female
rednekbob9: 2: You're Internet-able
rednekbob9: 3: You like anime
rednekbob9: you're automatically a perfect match
rednekbob9: run like hell
Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:45 pm
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
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Seven (SE7EN) is among my favorite movies, of course not so much for the religious implications but for the criminology of it. Brutal murderers who feel justified and right in their use of violence have always facinated me in a bizaare way, which is why sometimes I wish I had gotten into forensics and criminology...
As for Bono, I will set some things clear...
Science has never said that God is scientifically unfound. I don't know which issue of Popular Science you got that from, but I suggest you try and find a back copy of WIRED some time... December 2002's issue deals pretty well with the modern relationships between religion and science.
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In recent years, Allan Sandage, one of the world's leading astronomers, has declared that the big bang can be understood only as a "miracle." Charles Townes, a Nobel-winning physicist and coinventor of the laser, has siad that discoveries of physics "seem to reflect intelligence at word in natural law." Biologist Christian de Duve, also a Nobel winner, points out that science argues neither for nor against the existence of a dieity: "There is no sense in which atheism is enforced or established by science." And biologist Francis Collins, director of the National Human Genome Research Insititute, insists that "a lot of scientists really don't know what they are missing by not exploring their spiritual feelings."
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Meanwhile, decades of inconclusive inquiry have left the science-has-all-the-answers script in tatters. As recently as the '70s, intellectuals assumed that hard science was on track to resolve the two Really Big Questions: why life exists and how the universe began. What's more, both Really Big Answers were assumed to involve strictly deterministic forces. But things haven't worked out that way. Instead, the more scientists have learned, the more mysterious the Really Big Questions have become.
Also, your point that if we were to exist in some different mode, some different form, that would we still believe that it was miraculous, etc., etc.? Actually, I think you worded it like this...
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo wrote:
And let me pose this question: if there was no thing as existence, or if our existence was very different, would you know the difference. Would our existence not still be chalked up to miracle if we were a sentient, self perpetuating mass of radiation. Wouldn't we still say, "what were the odds of all these perfect pieces coming together?" if the gravitational constant were ten times what it is, and we were a seires of aiding nuclear reactions, or even if we simply didn't use carbon in our anatomy? It is very possible to have silicon based life, carbon just tends to be more efficient outside of extreme temperatures. How, I ask, can religion tell the difference?
...let me just say this... What exactly are you tryint to say? If I were a sentient being of pure radiation, would I still believe in God? Yeah, probably. If everything were completely rearranged, if things aren't like they are now, would I be able to tell the difference? No, of course not, but that still has nothing to do with a faith in that which is greater than myself. Why would I react any differently to the devine if I were a silicone based life-form? Who's to say that other life forms that theoretically exist outside of our realm of knowledge don't already believe in God? True, it may not be an anthropomorphic Christian God or a Buddhist Nirvana, but it is something of greater magnetude that may very well run the universe as they would know it. Even if the constants were to have become different, if Gravity worked differently than it already does, that would really change nothing.
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A) The Wright Brothers did get lucky. Even they said so. They stumbled upon a really good wing shape. Their engine sucked. Thier materials sucked. And they set the history books by about a month. Once it was determined that we had the ability to provide the power, hundreds of people set out to make powered flight happen.
I'm thinking more literal than you are. Obviously, the Wright Brothers had an idea of how flight could be achieved. They did some research and development beforehand, testing things out, etc. etc. They put work into achieving flight. They did not just happen to throw together some random parts and suddenly start flying without realizing what they were on to. Flight wasn't an "accident", even if their success was unexpected.
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B) I care what God is. Knowing that God is, simply isn't enough for me. I have to understand the world around me.
Which is why you naturally have trouble in theological discussion, because faith is not based on what you know or what you can understand, but is based upon the concept that you will never understand, and that that's okay. This is why many people of science, who base their lives upon what they can observe, are so frustrated by religion, which is based upon what can never be observed. Because of this, you can only believe faith to be a coping mechanism to make things more easily understandable. The same is said of science.
WIRED issue wrote:
Initially, scientists found the big bang's miraculous implications off-putting. When, in 1927, Catholic abbé and astronomer Georges Lemaître first hypothesized that existence began with the detonation of a "primordial atom" of infinite density, the idea was ridiculed as a transparent ploy to place Genesis on technical grounding. But Lemaître enclosed a testable prediction - that if there had been a bang, the gallaxies would be rushing away from one another. This idea, too, was ridiculed, until Edwin Hubble stunned the scientific world by presenting evidence of cosmic expansion. From Hubble's 1929 discovery on, science has taken big bang thinking seriously...
About 10 years ago, just as scientists were becoming confident in big bang theory, I asked Alan Dressler - one of the world's leading astronomers, and currently a consultant on the design of the space telescope scheduled to replace the Hubble - what caused the bang. He scrunched his face and said, "I can't stand that question!" At the time, cosmologists tended to assert that the cause and prior condition were unknowable. The bizarre physics of the singularity that preceded the explosion, they explained, represented an information wall that blocked (actually, destroyed) all knowledge of the prior condition and its physical laws. We would never know.
The more scientists testily insisted that the big bang was unfathomable, the more they sounded like medieval priests saying, "Don't ask me what made God." Researchers, prominently Alan Guth of MIT, began to assert that the big bang could be believed only if its mechanics could be explained. Indeed, Guth went on to propose such an explanation. Suffice it to say that, while Guth asserts science will eventually figure out the cause, he still invokes unknown physical laws in the prior condition. And no matter how you slice it, calling on unknown physical laws sounds awfully like appealing to the supernatural.
anyway, on with some other issues...
Because the number zero exists, God exists, because if nothingness has existance, that is, if nothingness can be conceptualized, which goes against the very basis of what nothingness should be, then of course something impossible to our rationalizing of the world would exist. Because the impossible can be conceptualized, the impossible can exist. If nothingness can have existance, then all the rules we've come up with go out the window, and yes, emptiness is form, and form is emptiness. I really didn't think I'd have to explain that, but apparently I did.
As for the idea of light being circular, let me add that it does not go against physical laws, and I will explain why. All I ask in return is that you go against your scientific "brain-training" and try to conceptualize the ridiculous and impossible for a moment. First, realize that I also did not say that the universe is finite. All I mentioned was the natural curvature of space, which relates to the natural curvature of a light beam. Because light is curved, it cannot reach the end of the universe (of course, since you already claim that there is no end to the universe, it's a moot point anyway), but it also does not travel forever into oblivion. Again, basing the assumption that a ray of light is left un-refracted by passing though nearby gravitational forces, etc. etc., it would follow a cyclic path.
Now let's add some more ridiculousness to the equation, shall we? What's to say that light can not determine its own path anyway? That is, has there ever been any evidence to point out that radiation eminated from the sun or other points of origin do not have sentience? Is it really so unbelievable to say that photons care about where they are headed?
"But if that were true, light would be able to change direction on a whim, and no one's ever seen that..."
Wrong. Light seems to travel only in a set path because it was designed that way. It is through its interaction with forces outside of itself that it is able to explore and determine for itself where it will go. Humans are no different, because our forms are dependent upon certain physical laws, but through interaction with our evironment we produce self-determined ways of interaction, and choose paths that may or may not work toward our physical advantage. We all know that light can change direction or magnetude by colliding with or interacting with outside forces, because we've all seen a rainbow, we all percieve this thing called "color" (except for a few unlucky individuals, whose perceptions of the world around them are further hindered by inablity to distinguish certain wavelegths of ligth, or "color-blindness"), and we've all seen light bend in a glass of water. But can that be thrown in as a simple act of physics? Who's to say that a beam of light doesn't decide to travel in its path because it wants to interact and bend, and that its purpose then becomes to see how much it can reflect and refract. Perhaps this is a conscious decision not to simply follow a path that will yeild very little except returning to its point of origin. And even if, in the end, it's true purpose is to seek its origin, the ability for it to further explore and determine alternate paths is still there. So, for just a minute, imagine yourself as a beam of light...
Mind you, this is absolute speculation and random brain-splatter, but that's the way "thinking outside the box" works. By disavowing everything that you have been told is "a certain way", you allow yourself the ability to percieve the universe around you differently. The entire "light is not a straight line" was thrown in there to challenge your concepts of the way you see the world, and to perhaps see what you may learn from not taking things for granted.
Another thing I'd like to hypothesize. So maybe, just maybe, light isn't sentient, and it does not have self-determination. But maybe all that invisible radiation is a manefestation of something outside of our realm of observation interacting with our universe. Of course things exist outside of our realm of observation, even science has proven that. What it has trouble proving is how much lies outside of our 5 dimensional world.
So, in the end, what I meant by people cheating themselves by not believing in God is that people who can live only within the realm of the observable become withdrawn from exploring anything outside of it. And people who wish only to put their trust in that which is outside of their realm of understanding are opening themselves for disappointment and danger. Like old Alphy Einstien said, religion without science is blind, and science without religion is lame.
"The Big Bang. Dark Matter. Cosmology is ruled by miraculous, invisible forces. Talk about blind faith." _________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
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To the smartasses who say "If there's a God, why does he let bad stuff happen to us?", I will very happily say "Why do you allow bad stuff to happen to us?" Why does God create war? Gee, I wonder why... could it be because war would not exist without peace? When's the last time 
