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  Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Why organized religion scares me
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Why organized religion scares me
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Gerbera345

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Joined: Nov 06, 2002
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The crusades, one of those bizarre little portions of past that should be better left in just that, the past.
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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 2:26 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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Post subject: disgusted by the rest of you...
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Before you assholes start throwing around the "zealot" label and making yourselves out to be the end-all authorities of what is right and logical in the world, you have to see it from a Muslim's point of view.

1. Beauty pageants are built upon the objectification of women. Anyone in their right mind would realize that any moral person would deem these pageants as disrespectful to women. Muslims have always been stereotyped as being oppressive to women, so I know many of you are already thinking "Oh, those women-hating muslims just want all women to be covered up." And yet I don't see how parading women around to be judged on the basis of their appearance would be acceptable in any moral society. You may think that women have it better here because they are able to drive, vote, dress in skimpy clothing, etc. etc., and yet our society still hasn't gotten past the blatant objectification of the "perfect woman", a skinny girl with big tits and a smile. Excuse me, but it's not a perfect world over here, either.

2. The columnist made a derogatory and unnecessarily crass statement about the founder of a religion worshiped by millions of people around the world. I'm not saying that violent retribution was necessary, but I think that the person who made such a statement was obviously a complete moron for thinking he could get away with making a mockery of a religion followed by many native Nigerians. While I haven't personally heard of any hard-core Christians bombing Comedy Central's studios because one of its shows, South Park, includes Jesus Christ as a character, I wouldn't be surprised. When you make such outrageous mocking of a religious figure, you mock all the people who follow that figure and that religion's teachings as well.

You want to label people who have such strong beliefs as "zealots" and "cultists" because it makes you feel safe, it makes you feel like you're better for not having any strong convictions in anything. The Secular Culture of America is one that saps away such strong moral standings among its citizenry. The only time I've remembered seeing a large number of our population being pissed-off enough to want to kill was after 9/11. Patriotism has become the new religion, loyalty to country the new commandment.

Most of you are still too young and naive to realize the glaring errors in calling those with strong religious beliefs "zealots". As far as you care, if these Muslims were so pissed-off, they should have formed a committee that would write up a letter of protest that would be neatly sent off to whoever it was that was in charge of the contest and of the paper and ask politely for an apology from said parties for offending them. Then again, that apparently already happened. In that case, kiddies, I want you to realize what it's like to live in a shit-hole third-world nation where the police are corrupt and freedom of speech and religion aren't always guaranteed. You have it easy, so you've never known what it's like to have to fight or even kill for your beliefs.

Don't go labeling people as fools and sheep. You don't know enough to grant such judgment upon others.

That's all I have to say about it right now...

Twisted Evil I don't play the Devil's advocate... I'm just aware of both sides of the coin...
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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 2:27 pm
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Gerbera345

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Quite good points, and I think that beauty pageants are one of the most bizarre things to ever see the light of day and I don't like them much.

It seems like the muslim religion has a more devout following than many other religions and the structure of the religion is set up in ways that really confuse the hell out of people around here. I'm not actually surprised that it happened, in the muslim religion a remark like that is a very bad idea.

I have a few experiences with that 'fun' 9/11 "kill all the muslims thing" I'm 1/3 Syrian and you can tell that so some people said some derogatory remarks.

The below post has a very good point and I agree with that one, in Aemrica it looks like the more money you have the smaller the role religion plays in your life.
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Last edited by Gerbera345 on Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
PostSun Nov 24, 2002 2:41 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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Post subject: another thought
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I want to add one more thing while I'm thinking about it. To Americans, religion is something you do on Sundays for about two hours, and then get on with your lives, doing your job, earning money, and striving for the "American Dream". To people who live everywhere else, religion is a promise of something better than the shit-hole they live in and call home, something more just and righteous than the police that can come in at any minute and shoot them for disagreeing with the current political heads, something stronger than their hunger, something grander than their poverty. Faith and religion are things that promise greater strength than any earthly kingdom. Religion is the one hopeful glimmer of a just society in a whole world that is constantly in war. Whether you live in Iraq, Mexico, or even living in the poorest sections of the Appalacian Mountains, your God is the only thing that can keep you from falling, from becoming a victim.

The world is full of victims trying to simply live without pain. Not everyone has the luxury of praying to the all-mighty dollar and worshipping the glowing idiot-box everynight. The strength of religion is larger than a Sunday morning to these people.
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"The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee

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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 2:42 pm
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Force-Attuned_Krogoth

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I'd like to share a story. It was told to me by my mother's friend.

Once, a long time ago, there was an old man. He was possessed of a ring that endowed its wearer with the powers of kindness, pacifism, and general goodness. He also had three sons.

When this man came near his death, he called each of his sons in separately. To each he gave his one ring of virtue. After all three sons had said their goodbyes, the old man passed away.

Afterwards, the three sons gathered. Each one showed the others that he had inherited their father's ring. Thus, there were three identical rings, one for each son. 'How can we tell who got the real ring?' they asked.


There is only one way to find the true ring. We must watch the three sons as they live. The only way to distinguish the real ring is in its effect.


This is a metaphor for the three sister religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The only way to find out which is the true religion is by their effect. The religion best able to sow virtue in its followers is correct.

What sort of impact does the issue at hand has on your prognosis?
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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 2:57 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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It's a nice story, but is built upon the belief that there is one "true" religion, which is patently absurd considering the vastness of humanity. It'd be like taking every scientific achievement and discovery up until now and simply stopping any further research or scientific discovery simply because it would possibly disprove any truths we have now. Religion cannot remain static, nor seperate faiths exist without constant interaction with eachother.

In other words, none of the rings is the true ring. The power of virtue and wisdom was crafted solely by the father in this story, and the impact that his message and teachings had upon his sons is what is truly in question. The three sons' actions will be dictated by how well they held onto the father's teachings and their own decisions. If they are able to see eachother and learn from eachother's own mistakes and virtues, then they may each live by the example their father had given them.

No Fate... but what we make of it...
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"The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee

"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
PostSun Nov 24, 2002 3:54 pm
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dillpops

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wow, how did we become so debatacle....that is so not a word...^^;;
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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 4:03 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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No, but I like it... Very Happy


*running around saying "debatacle" over and over again*
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"The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee

"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
PostSun Nov 24, 2002 4:04 pm
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gfpaperboy22

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I'm suprised that this thread has been allowed to live as long as it has. Its just gonna become another one of the honest question gone bad threads.

Force-Attuned_Krogoth wrote:
AdmiralGreer wrote:
So what do you call Mormons then?

Lemmings



I am not a Lemming. That is all I will say about that matter. It is my own personal belief that when you go to church, you go to worship what god/gods you believe in and become eduacted in that religion, not to teach why other religions are wrong. Get this, you know how many Extermination Orders have been issued in history? Two orders. One by Hitler to exterminate the Jews. The second by Missouri Governor Lilburn W. Boggs on October 27, 1838 to put an end to the "mormon crisis". Oddly enough, you could legally kill a mormon in Missouri up till 1976 when that law was rescinded.
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PostSun Nov 24, 2002 5:40 pm
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TheWorldWeKnow

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Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Post subject: Re: another thought
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JohnnyPsycho wrote:
I want to add one more thing while I'm thinking about it. To Americans, religion is something you do on Sundays for about two hours, and then get on with your lives, doing your job, earning money, and striving for the "American Dream".


good point, but that's a generalization - for a lot of people, like myself (and many others I know), religion is not an hour a week thing, it's a way to live (or at least try to live) your life

about Bono's comment speaking about God wanting us to kill those trying to kill us - people misunderstand Christianity, especially because of all the things Christians in the past (and certainly even the present) do; Christianity is a religion of peace, and Jesus is a pacifist, event he point of telling others to "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy as your neighbor"

about the Mormon comments - don't judge people on what you think their beliefs are, that's just irrational and stupid; I've known plenty of Mormons that are good people, and certainly everyone is welcome to have their own beliefs

there are soooo many other things I want to comment on here, but I hate starting religious debates; every religious debate on this board (at least since I've been here) has turned into something that just makes people angry and hurts feelings
PostMon Nov 25, 2002 11:34 am
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dougisfunny

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Post subject: so comment already
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The only problem with religious debates is that those without moral or religious convictions go making rude statments. If a good true debate was had, people could essentially strengthen their own convictions or turn over a ne wleaf of self discovery. Talks and debates can be wonderful or pointless irrational things. It just depends who does the talking, and what they say.

Giving up the chance for a good debate is avoiding a risk, but the risk is one that should be taken. so comment already
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PostMon Nov 25, 2002 12:04 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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The simple truth is that the three big religions that sprang from the Middle East (Judaism, Islam, and Christianity) are all pacifist religions, stressing peace and "turning the other cheek" above everything else. Some people don't get that message and instead work on retalliation and revenge. These people exist in all aspects, religious or not. Just because someone commits an act of violence under the assumption that it is what their religious beliefs commands does not mean that they are being extremist in their views, nor does it mean that they are any more just in their cause.

A virtuous soldier is still a trained killer. Just because you slap on a noble cause behind it doesn't mean that you still aren't killing or exacting violence upon your opposition.

However, just because you can't excuse someone for killing "in the name of God" or "in the service to Country" doesn't mean that a person is evil for doing such violence against others. Evil is a word that, at least in my book, exists solely within the furtile minds of human beings. Yes, there is a time when to act out with rage or to act out with violent intent actually works towards a societal goal, and the destruction of one life is actually constructive to another. The key is how to distinguish between these moments and moments of pure "mean-ness".


I'm not here to give moral advice or to pick sides on the "is organized religion good or bad" debate, because I don't believe religion to be naturally bad or good just as I don't believe the universe is composed of only two conflicting, polar elements. All I ask is that you think before you say something stupid, or blurt out something that will show how little you know about both sides of the issue.

The key to good debate is to know both sides of the argument.
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"The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee

"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
PostMon Nov 25, 2002 2:39 pm
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Spookmonkey

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to me, a zealot is anyone who is so blinded by their belief (in anything, not just religion) that they can not see any other way. Anything else but theirs ir horribly wrong and you must be shown to see the light, even if it kills you (in some instances, especially if it kills you). I'm willing to bet that those muslims who rioted are nothing short of religious zealots.
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PostMon Nov 25, 2002 2:46 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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reading back on that last post, I think I better clarify upon something before somebody gets on my case about it. When I say that religion is neither good nor bad, I mean to say that religion is in itself a way in which to control a mass population of individuals. Most of the time, religion is the very foundation of the creation of society, and most society today would not exist without the moral and ethical codes constructed by religions.

Religion is a tool used by mankind to help control itself, because everyone knows that humans experience a strange phenomenon called "free-will" that exerts itself beyond the bonds of any instinctual behavior patterns. Unfortunately, if you work too far against the instinct patterns, there is nothing left that will keep you from simply destroying yourself or others and creating an evolutionary "dead-end". Religion helps to explain why one must do certain things in favor over others. It's a form of conditioning and learning that gets passed on from generation to generation. The most simple form of religion is past experience passed from parent to child, and then from child to grandchild. These experiences become stories, which then become legends, which later become morals, and, after some more mutation, become religious truth.

Again, while I myself will not distinctly say that these Muslim people in Nigeria were right or wrong to do what they did, or that the Nigerian newspaper were right or wrong to do what they did, I will say for a fact that people who do not see both sides of the argument are effectively blinding themselves to alternate truths that exist within the situation. And that is a very dangerous thing to do if you ever plan on understanding not only your fellow human beings but what it is to be a human being.

And if that makes sense to you, you're smarter than most...
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"The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee

"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
PostMon Nov 25, 2002 2:53 pm
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JohnnyPsycho

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Spookmonkey wrote:
to me, a zealot is anyone who is so blinded by their belief (in anything, not just religion) that they can not see any other way. Anything else but theirs ir horribly wrong and you must be shown to see the light, even if it kills you (in some instances, especially if it kills you). I'm willing to bet that those muslims who rioted are nothing short of religious zealots.


again, i ask you to be careful, because you have no clue what the entire situation was. Perhaps there was no other alternative for these people than to publicly protest, and things escalated from there. You don't know. Humans have a funny way of reacting to everything with violence, but again, that doesn't mean that certain extenuating circumstances didn't exist.

Strong beliefs are beautiful things, but can also create strong emotional responses, both from those with the belief (the Nigerian Muslims in this case) and those who without (the people who rule such strong attachment to religion as extremist).
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"The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee

"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
PostMon Nov 25, 2002 2:58 pm
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