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Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Official Naruto Talkback
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ReBoot
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O8th
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Armada
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Do any of you watch the fansubs or read the manga?
Aside from reading the mangas I've only seen the movie, guess that's why I wasn't irked by Maile Flanagan's voice acting, she sounded pretty much like Junko Takeuchi to me.
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:52 pm
jackfrost
Joined: Sep 12, 2005
Post subject:
Vegito1471 wrote:
Do any of you watch the fansubs or read the manga?
Yes to both... I've been following Naruto since it came out years ago. The fact that so many of you HAVEN'T explains why you're so happy with the Toonami version, but doesn't explain WHY you're so rabid in defending it and criticizing those who think it's a crummy dub, especially when you're ignorant about the original work.
Apparently, ignorance is bliss here.
:VGCats "One Piece" comic snipped as it doesn't apply to a Naruto discussion :
Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:26 pm
Beefy
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
jackfrost wrote:
I've been following Naruto since it came out years ago. The fact that so many of you HAVEN'T explains why you're so happy with the Toonami version, but doesn't explain WHY you're so rabid in defending it and criticizing those who think it's a crummy dub, especially when you're ignorant about the original work.
There's a difference between saying, "I think the dub needs work because _____'s actor doesn't fit the character or doesn't convey emotions very well."
and saying, "OMG! Naruto's dub sucks! How could they defile the perfect Japanese version by dubbing it? No matter how good the dub is it will never hold a candle to the Japanese version because Japan is the greatest ever!"
While everyone is entitled to their opinion and constructive criticism is not discouraged if responding intelligently like in the first example, closed-minded stupidity like in the second example is frowned upon.
jackfrost wrote:
Apparently, ignorance is bliss here.
Yes, yes it is. _________________ "Robots don't say 'ye'."
"I'll show ye!"
Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:00 pm
Nobuyuki
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
The 5th Thesis of Anime "Fandumb"-
"Watching raw or subbed-only anime is simply not an option
for many people; do not decry them as ignorant, foolish, or
somehow missing out on the culture because they can't read the
subs or simply prefer to hear dialogue in their native
language. You are not smarter, more morally pure, or a better
person because you prefer subtitled editions."
P.S.- my bad, jackf, I hit the wrong button. Really. _________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."- C.S. Lewis
"Superman can't be emo. He can't cut himself."-CP
Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:20 pm
jackfrost
Joined: Sep 12, 2005
Post subject:
Beefy wrote:
Quote:
There's a difference between saying, "I think the dub needs work because _____'s actor doesn't fit the character or doesn't convey emotions very well."
and saying, "OMG! Naruto's dub sucks! How could they defile the perfect Japanese version by dubbing it? No matter how good the dub is it will never hold a candle to the Japanese version because Japan is the greatest ever!"
While everyone is entitled to their opinion and constructive criticism is not discouraged if responding intelligently like in the first example, closed-minded stupidity like in the second example is frowned upon.
Well, since I stated in my first post WHY the Naruto dub stunk:
"When the voice actors in a cartoon/anime can't even pronounce the MAIN CHARACTER'S name right, the show's headed nowhere fast.
"Iruka sounded exactly the same as Mizuki and exactly the same as Kakashi, and NONE of the actors spoke with any EMOTION! It was pathetic and painful to watch. It sounded like they were reading the weather report, rather than saving each other's lives"
...and I've never even mentioned that Japanese voicetracks are automatically superior to American dubs and that American dubbing should NEVER be done, that doesn't explain the violent reactions from people on this forum who aren't even familiar with what they're defending.
I'd just like the dubbing on Naruto, one of the most popular cartoons in the world, to be done DECENTLY. It's NOT 1989 anymore. There's no excuse for the poor job done on this series when numerous American dubs on Cartoon Network (from Cowboy Bebop and Inuyasha to Full Metal Alchemist and Dragonball Z) have been done well over the past several years. No "learning curve" should be necessary!
Quote:
:VGCats "One Piece" comic snipped as it doesn't apply to a Naruto discussion :
If you look at the last panel of it, you'll see that it DOES. Or perhaps the comments it makes simply hits too close to the truth for you.
"Watching raw or subbed-only anime is simply not an option
for many people; do not decry them as ignorant, foolish, or
somehow missing out on the culture because they can't read the
subs or simply prefer to hear dialogue in their native
language. You are not smarter, more morally pure, or a better
person because you prefer subtitled editions."
The 9th Thesis of Anime "Fandumb":
"Cursing, flaming, and other immature acting-out
against other posters (especially new ones) who do not
share your (or the board majority's) point of view does
not make you cool, important, clever, witty or knowledgable
about what you're ranting about. Especially if you're unfamiliar
with the anime in question. It merely emphasizes your
personal inadequecies and desperate need to cover them up."
Quote:
P.S.- my bad, jackf, I hit the wrong button. Really.
Uh, huh... if I were paranoid, I'd call it a Freudian slip of the finger.
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:05 am
Nobuyuki
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
jackfrost wrote:
If you look at the last panel of it, you'll see that it DOES. Or perhaps the comments it makes simply hits too close to the truth for you.
Any connection to Naruto is specious, at best. Naruto's adaptation isn't nearly at the level of "atrocity" as One Piece's.
Especially since we're not dealing with 4Kids.
Quote:
The 9th Thesis of Anime "Fandumb":
"Cursing, flaming, and other immature acting-out
against other posters (especially new ones) who do not
share your (or the board majority's) point of view does
not make you cool, important, clever, witty or knowledgable
about what you're ranting about. Especially if you're unfamiliar
with the anime in question. It merely emphasizes your
personal inadequecies and desperate need to cover them up."
Not even close.
"9. Romanizations that appear in both official Japanese product
and official English product should be taken as canon; her
name is Anthy, not Anshii or Ancy. In the case of
romanizations which vary within even Japanese product, either
the officially sanctioned English version should be used, or,
in the case of no English version, the most logical Japanese
version. It is "Bang Doll," not "Bang Dool," "Dotta," not
"Daughter," and "Xiaolin/Shaolin," not "Syaoran." "
Quote:
Quote:
P.S.- my bad, jackf, I hit the wrong button. Really.
Uh, huh... if I were paranoid, I'd call it a Freudian slip of the finger.
If?
I hit the "edit" button instead of the "quote" button by accident, and didn't notice until after posting. By then your statements were almost completely irrecoverable, so the best thing to do was delete it and apologize for it, which I am doing now. _________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."- C.S. Lewis
"Superman can't be emo. He can't cut himself."-CP
Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:32 am
Chibi_Zero
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
jackfrost wrote:
Vegito1471 wrote:
Do any of you watch the fansubs or read the manga?
Yes to both... I've been following Naruto since it came out years ago. The fact that so many of you HAVEN'T explains why you're so happy with the Toonami version, but doesn't explain WHY you're so rabid in defending it and criticizing those who think it's a crummy dub, especially when you're ignorant about the original work.
Apparently, ignorance is bliss here.
:VGCats "One Piece" comic snipped as it doesn't apply to a Naruto discussion :
I have been following both the anime and manga since the start as well. Anyway I really don't plan to follow it on Toonami. It's not that I hate the Toonami version, It's just that I already saw it and see no reason to see it again. The dub is decent(Sure it's no Cowboy Bebop but at least it's not Love Hina), I'm sure it will get better over time as the VA's settle into their roles. _________________ "I'm just very selective about the reality I choose to accept." - Calvin
Because blogs make you cool.
Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:02 am
KingSpanky
Joined: Dec 25, 2004
Post subject:
I'm up to date on the Manga and Anime versions of this show. And while its not the japanese version, thats just fine. They showed everything they possibly could. And guess what my friend, you're in the minority here. Even the site admin of Nartuofan.com praised the dub for being far better than anyone had expected it to be.
You sir, reek of a spoiled brat.
Last edited by KingSpanky on Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:26 am
Zechs
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
*cough*
Here's a little history and explaination on the state of the forum mentality.
Waaay back in 2000 we congregated here to discuss a new form of animation that had entranced our feeble teenage minds. Before the Dub/Sub wars, before editing was our number one concern, before any of the bullshit that has embeded itself in all the animation forums on the net, we were enjoying shows for what they were. I can't pinpoint it exactly, but as we grew in numbers and knowledge, and fansubs became more readily availible we began an endless debate over these subjects. The arguments of Romanization vs. Original Pronounciations, the ability to discern certain words as innapropriate one year and O.K. the next, blood, violence, sex. All of these things have been thoroughly discussed years ago.
Eventually, we got over our pre-pubescent angst and unbridled hate for CN giving us what we want, but not how we wanted it. For now, the members here try and exist as a reminder and mentor for those who are just begining the process of being pissed at CN.
Of course a bit of that piss and vinegar are still left within us so we do have a tendency to be scornful of those who don't automatically agree.
Now for my views on Naruto. The end result is what is better than I had feared but about what I expected. The voices aren't going to win any awards but they do the job. American dubs have a tendency to actually "get better" because actors are far more rushed and have little time to get used to their foriegn characters. In terms of translation I think they've done a fantastic job. They kept the honorifics which are vital, the attack translations are quite on the ball as are the character names. As for Naruto, they do pronounce the name right. Emphasis is on the first syllable, NA-Ru-To. Don't believe me? Watch a fansub and you'd be damned to here someone yell "Na-RUUUUUU-To". Even so, I don't really give a shit. Japan doesn't crap strawberry tarts, this show has its faults, and it's not a friggin' masterpiece, but those who worked on the US version of the show put a lot of extra effort to try and please their extremely critical fanbase and I applaud them. _________________ Bang.
Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:05 am
jackfrost
Joined: Sep 12, 2005
Post subject:
Quote:
And guess what my friend, you're in the minority here. Even the site admin of Nartuofan.com praised the dub for being far better than anyone had expected it to be.
What do you expect? He's the administrator of a site dedicated to the promotion of Naruto. Look at the comments of the message boards, however, and you'll find quite a different opinion that certainly ISN'T in the minority.
Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:28 pm
KingSpanky
Joined: Dec 25, 2004
Post subject:
At this point, it doesn't really matter. You and the other 'purist' will find anything you can to complain about. God, I really wish 4Kids had licensed Naruto. Then you purists could actually have something to complain about.
Lets recap why your pissed:
-some (ONLY SOME) of the VA's can't pronounce Naruto's name correctly.
-no gushing blood from the nose
-Intro and Ending's removed
Now why shouldn't you give a rat's ass:
-They kept all the original in show music
-They actually kept all the original damn names
-They didn't cut an scenes out thus far
-They actually say Kill instead of Destroy
-They use honorifics
-THEY DIDN'T MAKE RAMEN INTO SPAGHETTI!
-They haven't digitally remove any knives or daggers when they hit someone.
-They actually went above and beyond anything that has been placed on Toonami by getting the show rated TV-PG. Hell Gundam SEED couldn't even get that rating.
And finally
-THEY KEPT THE STORY LINE INTACT!
Remember Card Captor Sakura? They cut an entire season out of that show. DBZ had enough episodes removed to make up at least 1 season. And One Piece... don't even get me started on what happened to that.
The english dub of Naruto is as close to the original as it will ever get on cable TV.
Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:16 pm
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
KingSpanky wrote:
The english dub of Naruto is as close to the original as it will ever get on cable TV.
And that, RIGHT THERE, is A) 100% true and B) the sole reason that you shouldn't bitch nearly as much as you do. Naruto has been treated WONDERFULLY, and yet you still say that the english version sucks.
Man, I'll love to see how you treat friends on your birthday . . .
[/grouchyoldmankid] _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:32 pm
JJc14
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Hey jackfrost, it's obvious that you're going to stick to your opinion and, as such, run into further conflict with many of us over what we all think of the series. However, unlike the typical "all dubs suck" mentality that I flat-out disagree with, I noticed this in one of your earlier posts:
jackfrost, with the bolded part emphasized by JJc14, wrote:
I'd just like the dubbing on Naruto, one of the most popular cartoons in the world, to be done DECENTLY. It's NOT 1989 anymore. There's no excuse for the poor job done on this series when numerous American dubs on Cartoon Network (from Cowboy Bebop and Inuyasha to Full Metal Alchemist and Dragonball Z) have been done well over the past several years.
Would you mind taking a moment and tell us what makes these particular dubs passable in your eyes (er, ears I suppose...)? Especially in the case of Inuyasha, because that's one show that I've heard some very scathing commentary on by those who swear by the sub.
I don't mean to put you on the spot, but it might help clarify to the community why it is you feel so adamantly against Naruto's English dub thus far... _________________ "Life's a journey, not a destination..." -Aerosmith ('Amazing')
Current RPG(s): (None)
Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:46 pm
Laughingman
Joined: Jun 23, 2005
Post subject:
jackfrost wrote:
Well, since I stated in my first post WHY the Naruto dub stunk:
"When the voice actors in a cartoon/anime can't even pronounce the MAIN CHARACTER'S name right, the show's headed nowhere fast.
"Iruka sounded exactly the same as Mizuki and exactly the same as Kakashi, and NONE of the actors spoke with any EMOTION! It was pathetic and painful to watch. It sounded like they were reading the weather report, rather than saving each other's lives"
...and I've never even mentioned that Japanese voicetracks are automatically superior to American dubs and that American dubbing should NEVER be done, that doesn't explain the violent reactions from people on this forum who aren't even familiar with what they're defending.
I'd just like the dubbing on Naruto, one of the most popular cartoons in the world, to be done DECENTLY. It's NOT 1989 anymore. There's no excuse for the poor job done on this series when numerous American dubs on Cartoon Network (from Cowboy Bebop and Inuyasha to Full Metal Alchemist and Dragonball Z) have been done well over the past several years. No "learning curve" should be necessary!
You do realize that VIZ went out of their way to present all the english VA's to Japan for conformation. Studio Pierott themselves picked the voices for the dub which they thought were accurate, they even liked some of the voices for the dub better than the original.
No offense, I just want you to know that VIZ isn't the only one responsible for any problems you have with the dub, atleast not in the vocal presentation.
Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:58 pm
JKyle
Joined: Jan 21, 2003
Post subject:
If you feel this to be too angry CP, PM me and tell me what I need to change. I'm not even going to use that derogatory "n" word.
No, the internet one for a certain brand of Naruto fan, not the one that'll get you bleeped on MTV. Though I'm not using that one either.
primalbliss wrote:
JKyle - lets get this straight.. And I will repeat myself again. I came here to read about it because I was curious about the show. What I saw irked me so I voice my opinion about what was said in this thread. Call me stupid, call me names... I could careless. If you actually read anything I said you would have figured it out. Seems everyone else did. Get over yourself and stop trying to continue an argument that’s already over.
Oh and why are you so hypocritical? You flamed in this thread as well, who are you to point out I did?
I read everything you said, I assure you whether I give credibility to it or not. As an aside, if you would like to be seen as the mature side of the argument it would not hurt to spell check. Something I should have done if I'd been out to look smart, rather than just make a point. I'll get to the whys of my demeanor later.
The main point being, still not having seen the show, you didn't like the way Jack was being treated so you jumped in.
But, instead of just pointing that out, you compared the forum to a gay circle jerk.
Not that gayness, or circle jerks, are a bad thing, but I feel safe in guessing that whereas any number of out members MIGHT be gay (And if they are, it's nobody's business but theirs and the government needs to worry about the job market and NOT whether they want to affirm their love with a legally binding contract) no one here, is in fact, heading out to any circle jerks.
So high horse of mine or not, you did not exactly act without pretension.
I saw the beginning of this thread, the very simple ground rules laid out, and then those rules ignored. This either happened because they were willingly ignoring the rules, or they didn't read the first page. The second is not an acceptable excuse.
I made my points in rebuttal in a rather snarky manner. For two reasons:
1) They broke the rules so the mods are not likely to care if I shred them apart, it's more fun that way. This post was no fun to write. Probably not any fun to read either.
2) People tend to pay more attention when they THINK they're getting flamed. Had I actually been flaming (feel free to think back to the gay circle jerk paragraph up there and chuckle because I can't think of a better way to put this) I would've just called the aforementioned breakers of the rule idiots without making any sort of argument. However, I DID make several points and used humor (juvenile or mean-spirited as it may be) as punctuation. NOT as the underlying reason behind the post. I made my points and they were ignored except for the insults. This is inconsequential. Several people (cp, doug, veg) made good points sans bile and we're almost completely ignored on those grounds, just like I was ignored except for they didn't do anything worthy of being dismissed. Had I just flamed with no substance, the reaction would be the same.
This would tie into the first point. If you're going to be ignored you might as well flare their temper to get them to expend some of the energy you used up rolling your eyes.
So imagine my thoughts when you posted again just to knock me, being unable to actually discuss the show in question.
God that was drier than grain toast.
Moving on to Jack and the others...
Ignore the Frisbee joke and tell me how it seems fair to judge Kakashi when you have not seen an episode with him in it? The commercial bumpers, with apparently one line from Kakashi can't be good enough.
Naruto was not butchered. I'm not saying it is outstanding but it was not butchered. One Piece was butchered. Ironic since it comes from some of the same folk that did Slayers which I felt was a good time all around.
Naruto was not disgraced. Knights of the Zodiac, formerly Saint Seiya, was disgraced. If you thought Pearl from the OP dub was bad, imagine THIRTY or so cast characters sounding like that virtually indistinguishable form each other.
Naruto was not ruined for the American audience. Rave Master was ruined for the American audience. One of the most anticipated animes, and best selling manga (at least around these parts) was exiled to air at 4am in Hawaii, taken from there, and now you'd be hard pressed to find someone who knows when it airs off the top of their head.
If Naruto was really that bad it would not have drawn the numbers it did, and maintained them on the second episode as no one would want a full forty plus minutes of crap in one sitting.
Even those with no knowledge of subs, fansubs, torrents, know lack of quality when they see it.
Zodiac was banished.
RM was exiled.
OP has set THREE or more records for lowest ratings in the history of Fix Ki... the Fox Bo... 4KidsTV.
How OP has done so well on Toonami I can't say. Maybe people just really don't want to see The Batman, Hot Wheels, or stuff that airs 5 times a week on Miguzi anyway.
Now on to the issue of why I don't take offense.
Maybe I'm not as hardcore a fan as you. I don't care about the fan translated manga. In the same way I buy TPBs and stay years behind in comics, in this realm I feel no inclination to read without the tangible feeling of turning the pages.
Not reading the manga as far as the fansubs got, and not being proficient enough to go without subs, I also have no desire to watch the episodes raw.
HOWEVER I did stay in the possession of Naruto's first 50 episodes for over a year because I saw the first 5 and knew what they'd do to my spare time. I waited until I'd quit my job to start watching.
Watching in 25 episode blocks for several hours at a time, I'm about 125 episodes in.
So where I may not be the same type of fan as you, wouldn't you be a little more hesitant to say I'm not a true fan? Regardless of where you are or not, I am not ignorant about the work done in the original Japanese version.
Seeing as how many of our members don't need the stigma attached to Naruto fans or don't want to get caught in the crossfire, I'd wager over the half the people who told the whiners to settle down knew EXACTLY what they were talking about but haven't felt compelled to discuss the show here, or elsewhere before.
When you complain about the tiniest of issues in such a stated manner, THAT is overacting.
Kakashi's voice being the first example, look at the small matter of accents in Naruto's name. When you translate the liquid morpheme of the r/l to the plain Roman r it chances not only its sound but causes it to come out of a different part of your both.
The r being much rounder in roman, and just an ejected push of air in Japanese, if you listened carelessly to a Japanese person say Kuririn you could very well hear "Krillin."
When you translate, even maintaining phonetic spelling, some phonetics are messier to bring over. There's a reason "Kolean" has been used on the internet enough to almost become a real word.
Remembering this, I can't help but feel they were very meticulous in their translation. Konohamaru's name (the complexity of which is amplified by the speed in which it's casually said) sounds right which is in and of itself very impressive.
Whether the accent in Naruto is misplaced I can't say. I didn't clearly hear the accent placed anywhere. The accent MAY have changed but I'd hardly fault the actors for not learning Japanese (in the same way I'm not concerned with whether they read manga/anime or even like it...
as long as they do the job right) because
A) The language pathways in your brain slow at 5 and almost completely shut down at 18 therefore they can't be faulted for choosing Spanish or Italian rather than Japanese in college or high school if they even learned a second language
B) These people are trying to make a living not immerse themselves in foreign culture
C) Knowing the anime/manga culture does NOT make or break a performance. The fact that it's their job means most of them pay at least reverence to it, and if not it is unlikely they hold contempt for it because crazy Japanese giant robots can't be any less respectful than a soap commercial or those annoying radio ads.
I'm just happy his name isn't Nuh-ru-to, Nawr-Uto, or NehRu-To, accents be damned.
Lastly, this is a request not an accusation, do not use my actions or words to form opinions about this board. I operate quite autonomously. So do all the members here. Jack says we always agree or have some sort of elitist vibe going, but to search the other threads, everyone who agreed the Naruto fans overacted have at least disagreed with each other once, if not been at each others throats like this thread turned into.
All of this being said it wouldn't feel right if I didn't insult ANYONE, so let me just add that the guy formerly in charge of FEMA was a total douche. _________________ JKyle.com (Because bad things happen to good people) Cast in the Name of God
Ye Not Guilty
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