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Toonami Infolink :: View topic - Columbus Day Sucks
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Quickly, Minion! Say something to lighten the mood. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:13 pm
Ixidor
Joined: Jul 07, 2003
Post subject:
Should I Rant or Just something random?
Hmm.... Maybe I should complain on How I don't get the day off?
Ok, Sandwich Theroy it is or at least the basis of discovery.
Sandwich Theroy all arose on a fine tuesday mornaing around 10:30 PM in the parking lot of Toys R' Us on the way to the Arcade for DDR. Suddenly Bono starts talking about something intellagent... So naturally I go to my happy place and think thoughts about DDR. Then somehow, someway Bono found a way into my thought train. My happy place suddenly turned into a deep dark pit of black mana. To seise this invasion of Bono's talking. I quickly countered out of all randomness with "John! You and you Sandwich Theroy again!" I quickly explained what my thoughts on Sandqiches and how I liked them and seem to have a so called "Sandwich Sense" & how that related to the creation and eventul destruction of the universe.
Umm.... Sandwich
*Heads off to kitchen to make a sandwich" _________________ -Ixidor
Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:10 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
Ah, a minion and his typos/spelling errors. _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:51 pm
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
Spookmonkey wrote:
Thing is, things (and people) symbolize different things to different people(s). I understand why the tribes don't like him. But do you understand that the meaning of things can change over time? Columbus no longer symbolizes what he used to. The only reason the day is still around now adays is to celebrate the old finding the new.
Again, you completely fail to see just how deeply the wounds go. It's a stain upon our cultural heritage that will never go away, and celebrating Columbus for what you believe he stood for does nothing to change how millions of Indigenous peoples in the entire Western Hemisphere feel about Columbus.
Spookmonkey wrote:
The thing is Columbus ISN'T made out to be the hero history books used to make him out to be. History is one fo the FEW academic areas that I enjoy, the policital "whitewashing" as you put it is yesterdays fad. As I stated before history is being "rewritten" for the lack of a better term to be more open to the truth. Historians are out in force piecing together bits and pieces of what they can find to try to find the real truth of things. The political trend in writing histories today is actually casting full blame on the white man. This is no more the truth than the whitewashing. The truth is somewhere in between. I am not saying that white mans coming here was all flowers and the evil savages had it coming. Not int he slightest. I am saying that yes, terrible things were done. Largely by the side of the english/french/italians/misc. but you can't tell me natives didn't do their own versions of horrors as well.
I've already acknowledged that the history books are being rewritten, but you have to realize that just because history books get rewritten, that doesn't change how people who haven't read a history book in thirty or forty years feel about Columbus. These people grew up with Columbus being a heroic figure, and nothing my collegues say can change that for these people. And as long as those people are still around and showing up to our protests calling us "unpatriotic niggers" (and yes, it has happened, so you're naive for believing that all the problems of racism and discrimination have disappeared, because they never have; racists are just more low profile these days), we will still be around to fight that kind of thinking.
Also, might I add that I always hear that "Indians killed people just as much as white people". Let me add that you are wrong.
1)FACT: Some Indigenous nations, such as the Aztec Empire, used human sacrifice and slavery, which could be found everywhere else in the world at the same time.
2)FACT: At the time of Cortez's conquering of the Aztec Empire, the Aztec capitol city of Tenochtitlan was the largest city in the world. It was larger than Rome, London, and even Beijing (at the time), with a population of roughly 1 million people inside the city walls, and 1 million outside. Unlike the cities in Europe, the Aztecs lacked the rampant diseases and sanitation problems.
3)FACT: The Aztecs warred with neighboring tribes for land, much like every other large nation in the world. When human sacrifices were made for religious ceremonies, they used captured enemies.
While I never said that Native Americans weren't capable of horrible things, there's a difference between killing people in a war, and the underhanded tactics and biological warfare that were historically used against Native Americans for some money.
Spookmonkey wrote:
The countries you speak of, all are 3rd world. Mexico is a 3rd world country. United States and Canada are not. Both contries have tried to right their wrongs and continue to try. Yes, it sucks for those who live in the countries where they are still oppressed, but in those countries you probably will also find that there isn't much of a difference between them and everyone else. You live in a country were raising yourself up is encouraged, they do not. They live in counties whose government struggle to keep control every day, you do not. Your peoples plight and those in Cuba are worlds apart. I'm sure that there are more than a few natives in Cuba or Haiti who would gladly trade spots with you on your worst day any day of the week.
Also don't insult me by saying that just because Cuba and Haiti are miles away, I should just ignore their problems. That's the worst sort of logic I have ever heard, and sadly enough the most common "American" way of thinking about foreign affairs. The Cubans and the Haitians are our cousins, they are family. What happens to them affects us deeply, and to brush it off as "a foreign matter" is pure selfishness. It is our hope that by getting the United States, the most powerful nation in the world, to acknowledge and change the holiday, it will assist in creating change in the public policies of nations all over the world, steering away from the European hegemony that has existed ever since 1492.
Spookmonkey wrote:
We have been listening to your history, the only problem is that your history didn't enter the public school until you were done with the classes that would have addressed them.
AHA!!! You've stumbled upon the crux of my argument. Most people never learn anything about the true Native American history until they hit college, if they ever learn it at all. Most people have never read Columbus's personal journal, or the accounts of his travels that are pointed out by my collegues. THIS is the inequity in the system that we're still trying to change!! Sheesh...
Spookmonkey wrote:
This I believe only so far. There has been far to much talk from various tribes about the theft of land and getting what they are owed back to believe that entirely. Though I would love for it to be a universal fact.
Guess what? Every single one of those cases is based upon Treaties. Treaties made with the Federal government that were not followed through or were made under dubious circumstances. Every single one of those cases of stolen land, etc., has a legal right to be disputed in court, due to the nature of the treaties made with these sovereign native nations. They're not empty whining, they're specific cases of what is legally due to those people.
Spookmonkey wrote:
Such a pretty speach. I agree with just about all of it but that doesn't matter. Being forced to go to christian schools? As opposed to going to public schools? Or maybe no education at all? Yeah, it sucks that another religion was forced upon them. But an education is an education even as skewed as it might have been. taught only english? unless there were stationed guards amungst your tribe to kill all who uttered its tongue this falls mostly on the lack communication in the first place. Yes it's sad not being able to speak a single simple sentance in the language but did you try to find someone to teach you when you were younger or was it only later in your life when you realized you were deprived of your peoples anscestory. While I do say keep fighting for the truth, also realize the situations when they arrive.
*sigh* Your ignorance is showing, son. Let me educate you about something. We had our own way of teaching before the "invasion". As soon as we were forced onto the Reservations, children were forcefully taken from their parents and put into schools that taught Christianity and the "American" way of life. These children were completely isolated from their parents and families, and when they did speak the native tongue, they were beaten. And by the time they made it out of the schools (which was at about the age of 1, they had become alienated from their own culture. Hell, this site can tell you even more if you're interested.
The truth is, the language was stolen from us. When young people would return from the schools, they were so different from their parents and had been taught so differently that they were often unable to communicate.
Let me also add that my grandfather was taught this way. Because of this, he never saw any use in trying to teach the language to his children, so my dad never learned the language. I'm only just learning the language from a woman originally from Canada. But the language is still struggling to survive, because so many young people still don't understand how important it is to keep hold of it. As soon as the language goes, so do the rest of our traditions.
It's like the story of the Indian Trading Posts. During the pioneer era, white man began to give Indians such things as guns and metal knives and other things that we never had before. They made certain things, like hunting, easier at first, this is true, but eventually we became dependent upon these Trading Posts. In the end, we gave up the old ways for the relative convenience of the new ways, and we've lost much because of it.
Spookmonkey wrote:
By the way, the casino thing wasn't said as a degridation but as a joke. It's obvious that tribes all over the country have found a business that draws in money to help themselves out. I say go for it.
It was also obvious to me, which was why I made the obvious joke about exploiting the white man's weakness. Plus the " " should have been a hint.
Spookmonkey wrote:
By the way, Columbus himself wasn't evil. Neither were his superiors. There were most definitly some evil-doers who came over and did alot of damage but the biggest killer of the natives were the european bacteria and viruses that they unknowingly broguht with them. Let's just randomly flip the tables here a little. Lets say some native
desided back in 1492 that he wanted to, oh I don't know prove the earth wasn't ont he back of a turtle or something like that and find some long lost tribe or whatever to trade with. Lets just say that this native got a whole crew of other natives together on a boat of somesort. Now lets say this boatload of (we'll call them indians from now on as to not get confusing later) indians set sail to the west and landed upon.... how about Japan, yes Japan sounds good. Now this boat load of indians finds some of the natives of that land and goes "holy crap! we have to have found something here!" and head back to report the finding. You still with me? Anyway, after they report back the word spreads around about a vast new land with a people unlike anything they've seen before. Well teh leaders of a number of tribes go "hey, I bet there are a great number of things over there that would help us expand or solve problem X" and so an armada of indians are sent over there. Well said armada is met with resistance. Would the brave indians go well shoot, this was a waste of time and head home never to venture outward again? Most likely not, they would probably meet the resistance with some sort of force. On top of that the "new old worlds (the indians side of the pond)" diseases would also be running rampant through that land so damn fast. And then some stuff happens.
Then some 500 years later how do you thing the japanese people would have looked upon that one indian whos actions didn't really do anything wrong? It just so happened that the people back home had some other ideas in mind.
A couple of problems with this hypothesis. One, we already knew or had a good idea that people lived far west in the Pacific (or at least most of the Northern tribes did). Second, when any culture inflicts harm upon another, it is evil. Always. The Japanese did it to China.
I'm not up to make my culture out to be perfect. I'm just defending it, because no one did when my grandparents were my age. Besides, your hypotheticals and what ifs make no difference in what did happen.
Spookmonkey wrote:
Is it really right to blame the guy who accidently opened the gates? I do hope my point on that got acrossed, no matter how absurd the situation might sound.
I think the websites I posted at the beginning already answer that question. Columbus's methods were brutal (again, read the information on those websites). The "discovery" was not based upon just simply finding a new route to India, but finding a more economical way to take resources and riches for Spain. Columbus wasn't in it in the first place to prove that the world was round (that's a myth), he was in it for the money, and so was Spain.
Oh, and one more thing...
Spookmonkey wrote:
Yeesh you're in a pissy mood. and a bigotous mood too. It, if I remember right, according to history books... was the natives who traded their lands for shiny objects.
EVERYONE is distracted by shiny objects. It's just that you found away to capitalize on that realization. It has nothing to do with being ironic using the whitemans greed against himself. It has more to do with OOOO!!! SHINY AND LOUD! Wee!
Guess what? You're half-way right. You see, the people of Manhattan Island sold away the island for about $30 worth of beads, but it's not as simple as you make it sound. Because, you see, in their belief (and in most of Native culures of North America), nobody can actually own the earth. It was a ridculous idea. The earth owned you, so they gladly gave the island away for beads. In essence, the Natives that sold Mahattan Island thought they were getting free beads for simply moving off the island for a while. It did not occur to them that the white people would permanently settle upon the island, because again land ownership was a concept completely alien to these people. In actuality, both sides of the agreement thought that they were getting the better deal.
By the way, none of us want Manhattan Island back anyway. You can keep it.
Ah, that was yummy... and just think, I did all this before breakfast.
I like you, Spooky, but it's obvious from everything that you've said (which, by the way, are all arguments that I've heard at least a dozen times by various people before, to the point of being almost cliché) you haven't done as much homework in Native American history as you think. Just because you watched Dances With Wolves doesn't make you an expert, and it shows.
Oh, and don't expect your "Humanitarian of the Year" award in the mail any time soon.
_________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:18 am
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Dances with Wolves sucked. I could continue with this but I really don't feel like putting any more time into it. So I say unto you:
"Eh, close enough"
If we ever meet in person we could talk more on this. _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
i also think you should do some research on the Ghost Dance, Leonard Peltier, and the American Indian Movement...
but thank you for discussing these things with me, because when there is an open discussion like this, there is potential for everyone to learn...
And i hope everyone else in this forum was paying attention, because there will be a pop quiz on all of this...
_________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:15 pm
dougisfunny
Joined: Oct 29, 2002
Post subject:
i hope i do better on that than my recent exams... 10 out of 20 is not my norm _________________ The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:37 pm
Spookmonkey
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
JohnnyPsycho wrote:
i also think you should do some research on the Ghost Dance, Leonard Peltier, and the American Indian Movement...
but thank you for discussing these things with me, because when there is an open discussion like this, there is potential for everyone to learn...
And i hope everyone else in this forum was paying attention, because there will be a pop quiz on all of this...
hehe actually we covered the ghost dance last week in history. Open discussions are fun for all... unless it gets mean, then it just ends up sucking. _________________ "Veni. Vedi. Spooki." - Julius Caesar
I came. I saw. I spooked.
In japanese, we are in religon... _________________ I shake like a toothache,
When I hear myself sing.
Oh, my lies are only wishes,
I know I will die if I could come back new
Wilco- Ashes of American Flags
Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:27 pm
Ixidor
Joined: Jul 07, 2003
Post subject:
*Is afraid his ranting had no affect on the mood if this thread*
*Panics*
It looks like I'm going to have to jump
*Jumps out the window into a pie factory*
*Climbs out of the pie factory saying*
It looks like I'm going to have to jump _________________ -Ixidor
Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:45 pm
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
But the elevator is broken... _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:32 am
counterparadox
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Just to comment on something in JP's first post. I'm Italian. And Columbus can suckit. He was a rotten human being. I've known that for quite some time. However, I did get the day off of school, so yay. _________________ anime is teh s uck
Play City of Heroes/Villians? Look me up, Pinnacle server, @C Paradox
Sat Oct 18, 2003 11:45 am
JohnnyPsycho
Joined: Nov 14, 2002
Post subject:
I want to keep this forum open for a while, just so people can read this, but I'm not really going to add anything else... Until next Columbus Day!
_________________ "The principles you live by create the world you live in; if you change the principles you live by, you will change your world." -Blaine Lee
"I plan to live forever. So far so good." -Steven Wright
Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:49 pm
Ixidor
Joined: Jul 07, 2003
Post subject:
Clumbus Day II: The Return
A lonley thread on a small forums remains hidden til next Columbus Day... Who knows what new fights and blood shed shall arvive. What will Ixidor randomly say next? What will happen? _________________ -Ixidor
Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:57 pm
Force-Attuned_Krogoth
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Post subject:
I'm guessing something along the lines of
. . .
nyu. _________________ Krogoth uses Berserk.
Attacks are enhanced but defense weakens.
"Wait, that's not the cure button ... "
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, they had become alienated from their own culture. Hell, 
" should have been a hint.
