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I laugh, but I feel sorry for the guy. You know that has to really hurt. _________________ To do two things at once is to do neither. —Publilius Syrus, Roman slave, first century B.C.
Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:22 pm
Daikun
Joined: Nov 02, 2002
Post subject:
I saw that at another forum a few days ago.
Man, that must be painful! I hope he's ok.
Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:27 pm
Irkan_Warrior
Joined: Jul 10, 2003
Post subject:
Ouch! That was...interestingly painful _________________ The only truth that realy exists is the truth within the mind of the individual and the way the individual sees the world...
Thu Feb 05, 2004 9:06 pm
ToonamiL
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
That must have hurt badly. But hey, he was the one hitting it on the table thinking it was safe!
Fri Feb 06, 2004 4:41 pm
Zer0
Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Post subject:
I bet they didn't sell many of those swords. *mumbles*...cheap comercial crap.......
Fri Feb 06, 2004 11:11 pm
ToonamiL
Joined: Nov 07, 2002
Post subject:
Yeah, I bet when people tuned in at that moment, they thought it was a badly-dubbed Chinese movie.
Guy 1: Uh! I've been hit! (Mouth still moving)
Guy 2: Don't Worry! We have people coming to help you! (Same thing)
Guy 1: Thank you! (a minute afterwards)
Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:28 pm
WhtHawk
Joined: Jan 30, 2003
Post subject:
This post was barrowed from another board, but since it explains the general principal of sword making, I thought I'd repost it here.
Dave D. wrote:
I'm an amateur blacksmith, with an interest in metallurgy and bladesmithing, so I might be able to give some answers on this subject. No guarantees that I'll always be right though.
Stainless is crap for a real blade. Great for kitchen stuff, and things you want to last forever with no maintenance. Stainless is made by putting chromium into the steel mix. This is a trade off between chromium, which makes it less likely to oxidize, and carbon, which makes it stronger (up to a point).
There are several reasons why a sword blade is folded. The first is to create the type of steel you want. Smiths in ancient Japan (or anywhere else for that matter), commonly had access to one type of metal. Iron. In Japan it was called tamohagane iron, smelted and refined using the methods any halfway intelligent UMR student could figure out.
So you get this iron, and you need to introduce carbon to make it stronger. In order to do this, you fold it over and over again while heating in a charcoal fire. This introduces carbon to the outer layer of metal. Which you fold quite a few times in order to migrate to the entire piece of metal. You now have the proper grade of steel for the core of your blade.
Do the same thing again with another piece of steel, but integrate less carbon. This results in a softer, but tougher steel.
It should be noted that folding a blade is non-trivial. For me anyways. The process is called forge welding, and it is the same process that produces damascus steel when used with two differing grades of steel. The issue is the oxidation that forms on the outside of the metal when it is heated doesn't allow for a bond to form. When forge welding, both pieces (or the folded piece in this case), are brought to welding heat, a point at which the steel is nonmagnetic. The pieces are then brought together and fuse into one piece of steel. Failures in damascus gun barrels are caused by flaws in the damascus, which are very common, especially in a mass-produced piece.
The more folds a particular piece of metal has, the more carbon, which makes it harder and more brittle, up to a point. After that point, it becomes useless pig iron. The desired amount is approximately 1.5%. Three thousand folds is a bit out of the range of possibility. That would be 2^3000 layers, which is just a tiny bit huge. There would be no distinct pattern or layers at that point, visible to the naked eye or otherwise. More likely, 10-13 or so folds, resulting in 1024-4096 layers, in the hard edge steel anyways.
The softer steel is then wrapped around one side of the hard steel, and they are forge welded together to produce one piece of metal. From this point on, there will be no folding, as this would destroy the structure the swordsmith has created.
The result is hammered out to the desired length and approximate shape, minus the curve. Once the blade has the general desired shape, it is time to heat treat the steel. First, the blade is softened by annealing it. This means to heat the blade to what I would describe as medium cherry heat, and letting it cool in the dying ashes, or in a pile of hot sand. This slow cool removes stresses and flaws in the metal's metallic structure.
Then the back of the sword blade, the portion made of the softer, low carbon steel, is covered with a mixture of mud and powdered limestone, and the entire blade is heated to a bright cherry. This accomplished, the blade is plunged into cool water. The portion unprotected by the mud is cooled quickly, forming martensite, a crystalline structure of steel known for it's hardness. It also "freezes" into place.
The rear of the sword, cooling more slowly, is generally composed of softer pearlite. Also, having more time to contract before freezing, it shrinks more, giving us the distinctive curve of Japanese blades.
There is a hazy line, running along the lenght of the blade, called the hamon, where the mud was during this process. The smith has complete control over what this looks like, and there are many interesting variations. Sometimes called a temper line, it is actually the line of the phase change between martensite and pearlite. Temper line is actually incorrect, as tempering is the process of removing brittleness from a piece of hardened steel. The next step is tempering.
The blade is cleaned of the last of it's mud, then heated very slowly and with very low heat. At this point, the martensite edge is very hard, it is also brittle enough to shatter if dropped. The best way to do this in my opinion is to watch for the oxidation colors. Steel oxidizes to different colors depending on how hot it is. When a light straw colored sheen creeps across the blade, it means that the metal has been heated enough to remove the brittleness. The maker can then quench the sword, or, if he was going slowly enough, merely take it off the heat, and allow it to cool. If other colors are formed, such as peacock purple, the hardened steel has become spring steel. Which is nice for some swords, but not katana.
The sword can then be shaped with a file, then sharpened, polished, fitted to a handle, and scabbard. The entire process takes more than a day, and way less than a year. Low production of authentically made swords is due to Japanese law, which limits the production of swordsmiths.
As for other comments, a 7 fold damascus looks really nice. 128 layers, any more than that and they wouldn't be very distinct. Seven-nine folds is also a nice number when simply attempting to integrate carbon into iron. Any more that that and the steel will start becoming too hard to be the entire sword blade.
To make a 1 million layer sword would take about 20 folds. To fold a sword a million times would be to make it into pig iron from too much carbon. Hell, at that rate, you'd burn all the steel and be left with nothing.
As I said before, failures in damascus guns can be attributed to flaws in the weld. Properly welded steel is a single piece of metal, with no weak point for failure. Unfortunately, due to oxidation or other crud on the pieces before they are joined, these flaws are always present, just not apparent until you start trying to blow them up. (i.e. making a gun out of them.)
Fencing club teaches European fencing with the foil, saber and epeé. I'm more of a kali and silat guy myself, but I don't believe there's anyone qualified to teach that around here, least of all me. The kung fu school on Pine is very nice, not my speed, but I believe they do weapons work and they have some good guys over there.
The main impetus behind folding steel is either to create the carbon content you like, or to create a particular look. It was the theory for many years that folding two types of steel together gives you the hardness of the hard one, and the toughness of the soft one, but it doesn't make much sense. What actually happens is you get carbon migration across layers when they get really tiny, and you get a layered look (lots of small layers for this to work), and a carbon content that is the average of the two. Good if you have two types of steel, but still a comprimise, not the best of both.
Other neat stuff is that the Norse made pattern welded blades, as did/do the Moro of Indonesia, in the form of the keris blade. I'm almost more interested in these, as they are a bit more obscure, and I like the look better. Though there is something to be said for the clean lines of a katana.
_________________ To do two things at once is to do neither. —Publilius Syrus, Roman slave, first century B.C.
Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:41 pm
Kaoru_Himura
Joined: Feb 20, 2004
Post subject:
*gasps* oh i hope he's alright.......silly thing to do......*laughs* oh yeah slam a sword down like that with no experience..real smart. I dont think anyone bought those..............weird thing is we have the exact same kind.......... we didnt get it from them though _________________ People are like slinkys. They're useless when it comes down to it, but you can't help but laugh when one falls down the stairs.
Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:04 pm
dougisfunny
Joined: Oct 29, 2002
Post subject:
stainless steel?
Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:07 pm
The_Punisher
Joined: Jan 17, 2004
Post subject:
That guy was kinda dumb to do that. It was funny but sad at the same time. That must have hurt. _________________ I am Valentinez Alkinella Xiafas Sicidabehertz Gumbigobella Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre AnarT Charton-Haymos Ivanovicci Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III
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Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:33 pm
ImmutableDark
Joined: Apr 21, 2004
Post subject:
Ok to settle this stainless steel blade thing. You wouldn't make a katana out of stainless steel. A blade of that quality is made out of a soft metal(because soft metals are sharper) then forged using a fold stip method to greatly increase it's strength.
Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:38 am
Andromaton
Joined: Nov 17, 2003
Post subject:
and here I thought we just made a diecast mold and be done with that.
Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:14 am
John_Bono_Smithy_Satchmo
Joined: Nov 13, 2002
Post subject:
ImmutableDark wrote:
Ok to settle this stainless steel blade thing. You wouldn't make a katana out of stainless steel. A blade of that quality is made out of a soft metal(because soft metals are sharper) then forged using a fold stip method to greatly increase it's strength.
Settle... wha???? Did you read what the starter of the thread even linked? There were in depth explainations on just that. And this was setteled--months ago! Why dig up this poor thread's grave, just to haul its skeleton around town in broad daylight, chanting "he was right"? _________________ This space left intentionally blank.
Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:44 pm
Loki
Joined: Apr 19, 2004
Post subject:
That was tragic..Though incredibly hilarious! _________________ Justice is Injustice in some manner or other.
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